Fool me, this is real good shit ! [the VR thread]

[gilesgoat]

Purely a personal aesthetic thing, I think it would be awesome with some 80s neon glow because everyone know 3D and VR is meant to be neony

"BAN THE GEOMETRY WARS VECTOR CURSE !!"

I recently saw some working Asteroid machines, a working Black Widow, a working Star Wars .. ...

"REAL VECTORS DO NOT LOOK LIKE THAT !".

Real vectors really look A LOT ( almost 100% identical ) to the ones we have done in TxK

[Jamesac]

4. Aliasing. The procedural grid texture could do with distance AA as I got major moire patterns.

...

[edit] - ah right you saY DISTANCE AA, I think you mean some "depth of focus" ( i.e. filter more with distance ).

Again, yes, MAYBE, has to be tried, depends also on how far you are supposed to see, anyway that's really "trickery" trying to compensate for the fact the DK1 res is FUCKING POOR !

Honestly, I wouldn't bother trying to compensate for the DK1 resolution at all. DK1 is just the thing people are putting up with to get to something worth having, and it's limitations are going to be like the terrible blurring you'd get on the original green-screen Gameboy when you did any kind of free-scrolling. I mean sure, yes, there's a ton of DK1 out there now, but this time next year its particular version of the screen-door effect will be all but forgotten.

P.S. TxK on ps4 was running rather bloody nicely too

So does this mean its officially announced?

James

[gilesgoat]

I hope DK2 also fixes ( or at least improves ) some of the blurryness motion problem there's with DK1.

That's pretty annoying as well and it's due various factors, I hope they'll improve that as well.

[DeanoC]

Purely a personal aesthetic thing, I think it would be awesome with some 80s neon glow because everyone know 3D and VR is meant to be neony

"BAN THE GEOMETRY WARS VECTOR CURSE !!"

I recently saw some working Asteroid machines, a working Black Widow, a working Star Wars .. ...

"REAL VECTORS DO NOT LOOK LIKE THAT !".
Real vectors really look A LOT ( almost 100% identical ) to the ones we have done in TxK

He he he I know the real vector machines didn't look like that but all the snazzy fake CGI videos of the era had glowing things I want that.

[DeanoC]

4. Aliasing. The procedural grid texture could do with distance AA as I got major moire patterns.

...

[edit] - ah right you saY DISTANCE AA, I think you mean some "depth of focus" ( i.e. filter more with distance ).

Again, yes, MAYBE, has to be tried, depends also on how far you are supposed to see, anyway that's really "trickery" trying to compensate for the fact the DK1 res is FUCKING POOR !

Honestly, I wouldn't bother trying to compensate for the DK1 resolution at all. DK1 is just the thing people are putting up with to get to something worth having, and it's limitations are going to be like the terrible blurring you'd get on the original green-screen Gameboy when you did any kind of free-scrolling. I mean sure, yes, there's a ton of DK1 out there now, but this time next year its particular version of the screen-door effect will be all but forgotten.

James

I wasn't talking about either of those kind of corrections, the procedural lines are step function as such have an infinite frequency which is causing the extreme aliasing we have seen.

By taking into account the projection of the procedural texture onto the screen(classically known as spot size) we can almost completely remove the aliasing seen on the terrain. Of course doing correct procedural anti-aliasing can be quite expensive but it would look very nice.

It's exactly the same problem the classic chequerboard ray tracing ground plane has and the same solution, unless you will want it to look like Space Harrier of course.

[Dio]

That hugely annoyed me in the 3D film I went to see too. I kept on getting annoyed that bits of the film I wanted to look at were out of focus.

[gilesgoat]

That hugely annoyed me in the 3D film I went to see too. I kept on getting annoyed that bits of the film I wanted to look at were out of focus.

One very simple example "for all" that makes me MENTAL.

Take a 64x64 dot texture, apply a gaussian blur on it for a bit, make it "a smoothed dot" with not even that much blur and use it as a pointsprite, plot it around in the OR ( or Morpheus same thing ) ...

Result : the most shittest thing you could ever think to look at !!!

It's like "this thing is COMPLETELY BROKEN" and "OMG MY EYES ARE GOING TOTALLY INSANE".

Bottom line : THERE'S NO SUCH THING IN NATURE.

Bottom line 2 : seeing things inside an oculus is NOT like seeing them on a simple screen, it's totally different.

Yes we all know step function, aliasing theorem, sync filtering, optimal windows and stuff like that.

But we also all know that "there's no such thing as smoothing in real life" or if it is it works in different ways.

So far you been all seen a 2D thing with your 3D vision, now you are going to see a 3D thing in 3D vision it's all another kind of thing.

I've seen years ago quite an article on some IEEE Computer & Graphics issue about "the checkerboard problem" and various antialiasing methods .. reality is "NONE of them really fixes truly the problem", actually "the problem is unfixable".

MORE RESOLUTION VICAR and 120 Hz at least.

[DeanoC]

Proper AA isn't blurry, its just hard. More resolution only push the problem to higher frequency, but until we have 2x as many pixel as cones and rods, things like lines and checkerboards will still look aliased unless you perform AA.

A don't know if the line pattern is pre-calculated and just textures mapped on the the sinusoidal terrain, or calculated real-time as rendered but there are techniques which won't make it blurry and reduce a lot of the aliasing. If pre-calculated, mips and an elliptical filter (anistropic) filter will help a lot. If real-time, change the step function to a 'smooth' function below a pixel or 2 projection spot and see the awesomeness.

And VR makes no difference (except the spot size needs to be different for both eyes in theory). A point sprite is almost always wrong in this case, so the example you gave doesn't apply, of course a blurred (gaussian or otherwise) dot looks blurry

Depth of field isn't AA and those who use it to hide aliasing should be shunned and shamed

Perhaps I wasn't clear that I'm just talking about the 'terrain' which is just a 3D object without depth aware texture AA/filtering. Its a solvable issue (to a high quality, yes in theory its never going to 100% correct but we can get very close) and its if blurry its not being done correctly. The only good reason is performance.

Interestedly in this particular case, it may be faster to render the lines in a MSAA buffer. Cheap edge super-sampling solves this problem as the step function is easily converted into edges and use the hardware support for MSAA. Though merging back into a non MSAA buffer probably requires DX11 level api on PC.

[gilesgoat]

It's just a texture that looks like 'a cross' mapped over the terrain.

[Darkflame]

Depth of field isn't AA and those who use it to hide aliasing should be shunned and shamed

Its certainly not the same, but beyond a certain distance surely it amounts to the same thing in terms of end pixels? I am not sure the subpixels would have any influence if the environment is out of focus anyway. So maybe there can be a distance-optimization with no effect on the end result?

Obviously though, for stuff that should be in focus you should use AA rather then just blurring. We never see jaggys in real life, and thats not just a resolution thing - our eyes cones and rods really arnt the same as pixels.

[Baggypants]

You just have to "unwind" for that. Do a full circle clockwise and if that doesn't work, do it again counter-clockwise. The game doesn't know quite what to make of you spinning your head 360, Exorcist-style.

James

like an owl

Potential for an Owlchievment there I think.

[Sir_LANs-a-lot]

A OWL!?

[Yak]

We'll fix the owl thing in the next build that also fixes the game for ATI cards.

Of course it won't apply if you're using a proper oculus instead of the mouse since your neck won't allow it .

[Harlequin]

Of course it won't apply if you're using a proper oculus instead of the mouse since your neck won't allow it .

Swivel chairs!

[gumboot]

Of course it won't apply if you're using a proper oculus instead of the mouse since your neck won't allow it .

Swivel chairs!

Motors!