<RANT> DAMN you IT Job industry....

Inane baanter or words of wisdom - you decide...
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maraxis
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Post by maraxis »

Yeah, it's currently shite.
Sadly a lot of jobs are being sucked up by India (Bangalore).

Our company opened a development office over there late last year. (They don't mention this office in any of the company brochures...)

They even expect us to go over there and train them. Yeah right, dig your own hole.

Luckily, I'm the only one with knowledge of our UK internet product (As I done most of it). It's my 'precious' and no one's going to steal it from me Goddamn it. :wink:
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Post by cyric100 »

maraxis wrote:It's my 'precious' and no one's going to steal it from me Goddamn it. :wink:
Watch out for hobbits. Wizards also can't be trusted. :)
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maraxis
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Post by maraxis »

Watch out for hobbits. Wizards also can't be trusted. :)[/quote]

I'll kill 'em all before they get their thieving hands on it. :twisted:
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Post by themeadows »

Things are bad all over :( In Oz, the gov'ment keeps telling us how vibrant and healthy the IT industry is, but on the ground it doesn't appear that way at all. I consider myself pretty lucky. I am working for a large manufacturing co. managing their Intra- and Internet. However it is all project management and the "real" work is outsourced, so my background in Internet Publishing & Multimedia is helpful but I suspect a business/management degree would be a better qualification. (Which is why I am doing a crappy MBA at present :cry: ).
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Post by Fuzzle »

themeadows wrote:However it is all project management and the "real" work is outsourced, so my background in Internet Publishing & Multimedia is helpful but I suspect a business/management degree would be a better qualification. (Which is why I am doing a crappy MBA at present :cry: ).
That seems to be the future. The US recession officially ended in November 2001, as the GDP and average wages have grown steadily since then. But so has unemployment. Apparently industries other than manufacturing have figured out that you can outsource outside the country. Profits go up, and the managers that are left take home ever larger wages. It's good work if you can get it. :(

Though to be fair, it is landing huge numbers of choice jobs in the developing world. If there weren't quite so many billions of people on the planet, things would rapidly improve there and we'd all be better off. As it stands, its effects make the industrial revolution look pleasant and fair for all involved. :(
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Post by Arv »

CCNA for me this september methinks, its alright being a table leg (desktop support) but i need to branch out i think.
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Post by hyphz »

Fuzzle wrote: That seems to be the future. The US recession officially ended in November 2001, as the GDP and average wages have grown steadily since then. But so has unemployment. Apparently industries other than manufacturing have figured out that you can outsource outside the country. Profits go up, and the managers that are left take home ever larger wages. It's good work if you can get it. :(

Though to be fair, it is landing huge numbers of choice jobs in the developing world. If there weren't quite so many billions of people on the planet, things would rapidly improve there and we'd all be better off. As it stands, its effects make the industrial revolution look pleasant and fair for all involved. :(
Fortunately, it does have an inbuilt throttle. Sooner or later the firms will realise that their own home markets can't afford to buy their products (because without jobs they don't have the money to pay), and if they plan to resell in the places where they're importing labour from, they'll have to sell at an appropriate price for that region, cancelling out the benefit of importing the labour in the first place.
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Post by hairy_pete »

I just figured that should I ever want or have to get out of IT bizz, I shall become a Drill Seargant in a health clinic for the obese :twisted:
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Post by polyhex »

<edit> image failing to link so Ive taken it out </edit>
Last edited by polyhex on Thu Aug 07, 2003 8:22 am 0, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ekendrick »

hyphz wrote: Sooner or later the firms will realise that their own home markets can't afford to buy their products (because without jobs they don't have the money to pay)
Heh - I've been pondering this exact point for a while now. We are outsourcing more and more coding work to India and Bulgaria, keeping only the architectural/management roles in the UK. Architects don't appear out of thin air - they develop from training and years of experience in a developer role. At some point all the Architects die out and there is nobody to replace them. Of course there are the coders in India... who will become architects the moment they clue up and have enough experience, enter the country and put any existing architects out of the market by undercutting them.

For the IT industry in the UK this is a complete death knell if followed to its conclusion.

And of course these developers in India will have to be managed, and naturally this will require team leaders and low level managers on the spot in India to deal with them. Only the high-level managers will be in the UK, the vision that they come straight from university into a high powered management job. Of course, if they falter then I'm sure there will be plenty of experienced low-level managers in India waiting to grow into their shoes...

Mind you this will never happen. If a British company makes Widgets in a factory in the Far East, with a call centre in India, using call centre software developed in India, then it won't take Shareholders long to realise and demand that the whole company outsource! After all, minus funding and revenue, everything else is just cost and should be reduced.

Everyone in the UK will be either independently wealthy (and therefore likely a shareholder causing all this to happen), or in the services business (i.e. waiters, cleaners, etc).

Of course this is a very extreme and bleak view ;)

In practice, this is just one of those stupid management fads that will crash and burn. At my workplace we've already found that you can't outsource software development without it being full of bugs and not meeting requirements. Architects are working long hours recoding and fixing things in order to let management think the whole process is working. Of course, we'll develop formal specification procedures, to try and get roughly what we want. Documents will become larger and more elaborate, pinning all the details down before you can start. You can throw any pretensions to RAD out of the window. Eventually it will become obvious that you can't develop software quickly and relatively bug free without lots of communication. You then bring the whole development team back in-house, probably bringing a few of the India developers in with you. Meanwhile you've kickstarted a whole software development industry in India, so expect to see some innovative new products and companies in a bout a year....
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Post by Elk »

Good thread folks.. very depressing though.. the IT indo is also terrible in Oirland..Oh well I should be grateful that I have a job....

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Post by spinlizard »

ekendrick wrote:In practice, this is just one of those stupid management fads that will crash and burn. At my workplace we've already found that you can't outsource software development without it being full of bugs and not meeting requirements. Architects are working long hours recoding and fixing things in order to let management think the whole process is working. Of course, we'll develop formal specification procedures, to try and get roughly what we want. Documents will become larger and more elaborate, pinning all the details down before you can start. You can throw any pretensions to RAD out of the window. Eventually it will become obvious that you can't develop software quickly and relatively bug free without lots of communication. You then bring the whole development team back in-house, probably bringing a few of the India developers in with you. Meanwhile you've kickstarted a whole software development industry in India, so expect to see some innovative new products and companies in a bout a year....
This was becoming a depressing thread, then I read that and found that it matched with my own experiences.

I work as part of a team developing business software. We work in close proximity to the users (same building) and conduct weekly, often daily meetings with them during development to iron out all the "so you asked for this but you actually want that" misunderstandings. Everything is project planned, charted, process-flowed, documented,analysed and signed off by the end-users before a single line of code is written.

And yet still, even after all that, we find we have problems - apps don't deliver what the users want. And this is always, always due to lack of communication between developers/analysts/users.

If we were to ship the coding over to India, I would not want to be part of the implementation team 8O . It just wouldn't work.

I think generic software can be outsourced to an extent. Apps which perform a single task for example, or black-box stuff for instance. No reason why they can't be done overseas as long as the project brief is carefully done, understood and adhered to.

But multi-module warehouse/accountancy/timesheet/billing/scrub the floor apps would I think cost more if outsourced due to the fact that there's no way they would ever work without a ton of redevelopment.

Just my 2p.
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Post by hairy_pete »

Right ... but attempting it would at least get the "hey, it's just software, we can change the specifications any time we want" attitude out of customers' and bosses' heads.

Specification written, agreed upon, cast in iron. Software written, tested, released - to work exactly as specified. Not what you wanted? Sorry. Development cycle starts over. On YOUR money.That's how it SHOULD be, and that's actually the only way to get ANY money out of contracted software authoring ... get paid once the software fulfills the written specification, not the customer's ever changing wishes.
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Post by maraxis »

hairy_pete wrote: Specification written, agreed upon, cast in iron. Software written, tested, released - to work exactly as specified. Not what you wanted? Sorry. Development cycle starts over. On YOUR money.That's how it SHOULD be, and that's actually the only way to get ANY money out of contracted software authoring ... get paid once the software fulfills the written specification, not the customer's ever changing wishes.
I think this is where our company is falling over on. Normally, we'd receive a spec. from a client or sales person (trying to make an extra sale for some whiz bang function). And the whole spec. would be about one sentence in length.
Now we in the UK (and our other place in Oz.) can manage and produce a program from such small grains. However, the culture in India seems to be that they'll do exactly what they're told to do. No creative input is placed into the code. If the spec. isn't logical then they'll produce code that just doesn't work. We've had quite a bit of code that's been sent back to them to re-do. I think it can loop around quite a bit. Luckily I don't have to deal with this nonsense but it makes me happy as the upper management are starting to realise it's not easy to produce quality code.

They seem to have the attitude we're just overpaid factory workers. However, if you're a sales person then, shit, you can walk on water...
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yep me too..

Post by NickMon »

My role is being 'outsourced' in November, and thus I will also be redundant....

17 years in IT, leading by example, allways the best person in any of the companies I worked in, allways the one that 'knew' or got things done...

Whos replacing me ? 3 Indians at $5000 salary per year ! But three people I said....yep they said 3 should be able to cover what you do and look at the cost saving...

I cant win..

I have been looking since Feb and found nothing exciting to move to, but then again not being looking to hard, waiting for the pay off...

I just Hope I can find something come November...
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