The Return of Commodore?

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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by skab »

KlaxonCow wrote:I was comparing it to the classic breadbin, not the C128.
I was, too. I guess my post was just too short for you... :lol:

The C64C came way after the C128 and was clearly modeled after the C128 case, but for whatever reason they made it quite tall/thick and kept the old C64 keyboard mechanics with those incedibly high keycaps (probably the cheapest option).

"Whatever" seems to be how decision-making was done at Commodore, anyway. The breadbin came with grey and beige F-keys, then there was the C64C, then after that the breadbin came back, in grey, light grey, or white, the white keyboards first came with the new Avant-Garde-lettering, then the old 1982 typeset came back, at the same time we got 3 different "Commodore" logos/fonts, often used at the same time on the same machine.
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by skab »

Oh, and you have to understand the environment the C128 was developed. It was basically a guerilla project of Bil Herd, a proof of concept that you can make an upgraded 8-bit machine that's about 100% compatible to the C64, and that it can be done on the cheap and FAST. Tramiel was just gone and CBM was like a headless chicken. The TED project (C16 et al) was failing horribly under the new leadership, and Bil Herd wanted to make a final upgrade as the swansong of the 8-bit generation.

Everything was already there, including the horrible VDC chip, if they have had the time to design a VIC-III they surely wouldn't have bothered with this shitshow of a graphics chip. The Z80 was an accident, they were aiming for 100% compatibility, and when they tried the CPM module (that was a bad copy of the Apple card and only worked on a handful of C64 models anyway) it didn't work. In the end they simply put the Z80 in the main machine and that's it. In the end that worked out just fine, the Z80 became the boot controller and was responsible for switching between modes. So when you press C= on boot it's the Z80 that switches to the C64 mode.

The modifications done in the C128 versions of the 6510 and VIC were minimal and quickly done and were only possible since they had their in-house chip design facilities and fab.

A SID-II like you want would have been difficult. It was originally planned with 32 voices, but in the end there was only room for 3. The process used was coarse even for the time, so a 6-voice SID would have been a major revision. But they could have simply put two of them in there, that would be my main complaint about the C128. They had two of everything in there, 2x the RAM, 2x graphics chips, 2x CPUs, why not 2x SIDs?

It's always easy to say what could have been done better, the Amiga history could have been completely different as well.

Hindsight, 20/20, all that. Even the biggest Archimedes fanboys in the 80s would never have believed that its CPU architecture would become one of the dominant ISAs decades later.
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by KlaxonCow »

We're really not disagreeing as much as it might initially seem.
skab wrote:Oh, and you have to understand the environment the C128 was developed.
Yes, indeed, I can imagine it was a shit show of poor Commodore management and Bil Herd as the only one actually bloody trying.

But that's all tied into it. Whatever caused us to end up with an overly-complicated machine with two CPUs, two graphics chips to accommodate an 80-column CP/M, instead of doubling down on the C64's gaming strengths is the problem.

And, honestly, I generally assume these issues come from management, in spite of the engineers, because 99% of all business problems derive from managers, not the "shop floor" workers.

To be clear, I'm not blaming Bil Herd in the slightest for doing as best as he could within a constrained environment - the blame lies in there being a constrained environment.
skab wrote:Everything was already there, including the horrible VDC chip [...] The Z80 was an accident [...] when they tried the CPM module [...] it didn't work. In the end they simply put the Z80 in the main machine and that's it.
But this is the essence of the criticism. What the fuck were they doing pursuing 80-column CP/M in the first place? Even at the time, CP/M was dated.

Why was management even thinking of this? It's like scoring a #1 hit with a "Mr. Blobby" novelty pop song, then deciding to make an artistic multimedia Wagnerian opera... and then wondering why you're not hitting the same audience and enjoying the same success.

There's little overlap there. If you bought a C64 for gaming, then 80-column CP/M is completely alien and meaningless to you. If you give a shit about 80-column CP/M, then you're buying an IBM, not a budget gaming home computer. The demographic overlap there is probably, at most, 3 people.

I'm not having a pop at the engineers for doing the best they could with shit managerial decisions. I'm having a go at the managers, because where the shit did CP/M and VDC and all that come from in the first place?
skab wrote:The modifications done in the C128 versions of the 6510 and VIC were minimal and quickly done and were only possible since they had their in-house chip design facilities and fab.
But this was always Commodore's advantage. Their "vertical integration".

And that's kind of the point. Instead of doubling down on the very thing that gave them the advantage - the C64 is weak in the CPU department with a 1MHz CPU, and it was the graphics and sound chips that saved the day - they're pissing about trying to poorly ape other people's advantages, with CP/M and 80-columns. That's putting yourself on the back foot and leaving your primary advantage over everyone else - that you own MOS Technology - to rot away in a dark damp corner.

This is the classic "king of the castle" problem. You are the king. You are the best. You are #1. But when you look out from your castle at all the other lesser castles, then you don't see your own superior castle but only see inferior castles... and then convince yourself to imitate what you're seeing, and therefore you're actually making your own superior castle worse to match the inferior castles you see around you.

Yes, they owned MOS Technology. But that's the whole point. Take advantage of that ability to make custom chips - the very thing that won you success with the C64, because without the VIC and SID, the C64 wouldn't have gotten anywhere with a 1MHz CPU, struggling to do anything.
skab wrote:It was originally planned with 32 voices, but in the end there was only room for 3.
Wow, can you imagine how insanely good C64 SID music would have been if Hubbard had 32 voices to play with?

Like, an individual voice for each drum. Doubling, tripling up voices for chorus and phasing, and creating complex "tones" to each instrument. While everything else on the market is just shitty "beeps". The SID already blew everything else out of the water, so imagine if it could have done so with ten times - an order of magnitude - more voices available.

But this just emphasises the point. Why is MOS Technology - who you own - not being taken advantage of, to produce these market-winning custom chips? Why is the R&D not all going into "how do we cram 6 voices into this thing?"? No, let's pursue an 80-column CP/M that nobody wants and produce a whole line of weaker machines with less capability and memory - C16 and Plus/4 (with the Plus/4 also showing this "serious business" obsession, as the "plus 4" are 4 productivity apps) - when you should be standing on the shoulders of the C64's success... and just make a "better C64" with revised custom chips that are even better.
skab wrote:But they could have simply put two of them in there, that would be my main complaint about the C128. They had two of everything in there, 2x the RAM, 2x graphics chips, 2x CPUs, why not 2x SIDs?
We agree on that. I did concede that if stuffing 2 SIDs into one chip was a bit too much for the time, then dual SIDs was the other option that achieves the same thing.

And a big part of my argument is actually that the C128 we got was overly-complicated. Two CPUs and two graphics chips stuffed into one machine. That could not have been easy or cheap. Indeed, hats off to the engineers for making it work at all.

But, like, this is wasted effort. Stick with one CPU and one graphics chip - and just make them better. Note that if we ignore my thoughts on adding character scroll and more sprites, you could simply have made a 2MHz VIC to match your 2MHz 6510. That's it. Just make it function at double the clock speed, on a 4MHz bus (so it has the same architecture, pulling off the same trick of CPU and VIC addressing the bus alternately, but just doing it all twice as fast).

The point is that this is LESS of an ask on their engineers than "can you create an overly-complicated and more expensive machine with two CPUs and two graphics chips - which inherently can't be operating at the same time, so the one is always redundant while the other runs?", which is what they actually did.
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

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KlaxonCow wrote:But this is the essence of the criticism. What the fuck were they doing pursuing 80-column CP/M in the first place? Even at the time, CP/M was dated.

Why was management even thinking of this? It's like scoring a #1 hit with a "Mr. Blobby" novelty pop song, then deciding to make an artistic multimedia Wagnerian opera... and then wondering why you're not hitting the same audience and enjoying the same success.

There's little overlap there. If you bought a C64 for gaming, then 80-column CP/M is completely alien and meaningless to you. If you give a shit about 80-column CP/M, then you're buying an IBM, not a budget gaming home computer. The demographic overlap there is probably, at most, 3 people.
80 columns was the rising king. There was a lot of it about, quite a lot of it British (Beebon, Newbrain, Lynx and ?Amstrad?). CP/M was dodo bound for sure, though that may not have been so obvious on the spur of the moment.
skab wrote:It was originally planned with 32 voices, but in the end there was only room for 3.
Wow, can you imagine how insanely good C64 SID music would have been if Hubbard had 32 voices to play with?

Like, an individual voice for each drum. Doubling, tripling up voices for chorus and phasing, and creating complex "tones" to each instrument. While everything else on the market is just shitty "beeps". The SID already blew everything else out of the water, so imagine if it could have done so with ten times - an order of magnitude - more voices available.
I am not a muso, and thus I don't care about this, but it seems very likely that in that case the machine would have been horribly CPU bound when dealing with sounds.
But this just emphasises the point. Why is MOS Technology - who you own - not being taken advantage of, to produce these market-winning custom chips? Why is the R&D not all going into "how do we cram 6 voices into this thing?"? No, let's pursue an 80-column CP/M that nobody wants and produce a whole line of weaker machines with less capability and memory - C16 and Plus/4 (with the Plus/4 also showing this "serious business" obsession, as the "plus 4" are 4 productivity apps) - when you should be standing on the shoulders of the C64's success... and just make a "better C64" with revised custom chips that are even better.
Ex MOS people, given apparently free rein, made the 65816. which was (oversimplifying quite a bit) a 6502 version of the 8088, Woz liked it but it was never going to challenge the 68010 or the 80286.
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by KlaxonCow »

zip accident wrote:I am not a muso, and thus I don't care about this, but it seems very likely that in that case the machine would have been horribly CPU bound when dealing with sounds.
Whilst it would have used more CPU, but it wouldn't have been that bad.

The whole point of a sound chip like the SID is to take the burden of the actual audio generation from the CPU. To be a "sound co-processor".

Typically, games would have a sound routine hooked up to the vertical blank interrupt - so it fires 50 (PAL) / 60 (NTSC) times a second - and then it just adjusts a few bytes for each voice, if it needs it. So, for example, if you want pitch bend or vibrato on voice 1, then the Interrupt Service Routine would fire at, say, the bottom of the screen, then the CPU would change the pitch of the voice - POKEing two bytes - and then return.

Sure, doing that 32 times instead of 3 is more CPU work but writing 2 * 32 = 64 bytes is not the biggest deal. I mean, a C64 hardware sprite is 63 bytes. So equivalent-ish to writing new bytes to one sprite. What takes most time in a sound routine is the logic to work out what to do. To read the "music data" and then work out which voices to tweak in what ways. But if a voice is not changing this frame, you don't have to do anything, so leave the SID to carry on.

It would be more CPU work, but only modestly so. It wouldn't be a "horrible" burden.

(And musicians would adapt, of course. You could just only use 8 voices for a particular tune, if you didn't want to take up too much CPU. An "8 track SID" is already ridiculous that, if the CPU is needed, we just leave the other 24 voices on the table.)
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by KlaxonCow »

Great minds, I guess.

The 8-bit guy was apparently having similar thoughts at the same time, as this is his pitch for the "alternative universe C128". And, interestingly, he's going for the disk drive - that if the disk drive was a built-in 3.5" (as later seen on Atari ST and Amiga), then this would have encouraged more C128-specific software.



An interesting take. I'm still thinking that the biggest barrier was the lack of a 2MHz VIC-II.

Because that means you had to use the VDC if you switched to 2MHz. And the VDC used its own video RAM, not system RAM, so it was too slow for games, as you've got to shift everything over to its own internal RAM, rather than just POKEing stuff to the system RAM directly.

Basically, the lack of a 2MHz VIC created two different machines inside one machine. Either you were "C64 mode" or "C128 mode" and never the twain shall meet - and, indeed, in that battle, the lowest common denominator is going to win. And, besides banking in the extra 64KB of RAM, you couldn't really take advantage of the C128's enhancements like a 2MHz CPU.

But, in this alternative universe, Commodore don't screw themselves over. You create a 2MHz VIC to match the 2MHz CPU. Then you don't need the VDC - and, in fact, the effort put into the VDC could instead be expended on this new 2MHz "VIC-III" to stick with the VIC but just make that one better instead. Such as, as noted, character scroll, programmable colour palette, more sprites and a multicolour mode that doesn't sacrifice horizontal resolution.

And, hey, an 80 column text mode. And you've acknowledged that the Z80 was kind of an accident. Because a 6502 port of CP/M wasn't compatible. But the thought is - if you're going to have to make a trade-off, because you have to, then CP/M's the thing to trade-off as not so good because, honestly, no-one wanted or was using the CP/M mode anyway. With that trade-off, you don't have the Z80. You just accept that the 6502 CP/M needs the software to be translated for it - and we accept that because who the hell is even using CP/M anyway?

Or, in other words, the essence of my argument - they compromised the wrong thing. Indeed, in a C64, the 6510 is a bit shit, honestly. Only 1MHz. What makes it the machine that it is, is VIC and SID. Those custom chips were the C64. And, as mentioned, this was Commodore's advantage, that they owned their own fab to be able to make their own custom chips (and this wasn't just a technical advantage, it was an economic one, as Commodore were paying "cost price" for their own chips and they were making more profit from that than anyone else was).

So, the argument is that the best and obvious route would have been to make a "better C64" by upping its CPU to 2MHz, improving the VIC to work in 2MHz (and improve its capabilities) and improving the SID (or including two SIDs, instead of improving the chip itself to a SID-II).

And it's not an entirely alien concept. After all, the C64 had the VIC-II. Where the VIC-20 had the VIC-I. The notion of a VIC-III is just carrying that on.

But, yeah, that's my take. The real cock-up at the heart of it was that you couldn't use the VIC in 2MHz mode. And the effort should have gone into just making the VIC able to work in 2MHz, on a 4MHz bus. C64 graphics typically runs off the raster interrupt anyway - so I reckon a surprising amount of stuff would have still actually worked, switching to 2MHz, with little to no changes.


p.s. Yes, "Alternative Universe" rather than "Alternate Universe". People always make that grammatical mistake. An "alternate universe" would imply there's only two of them and they flip back and forth all the time.

p.p.s. There's also the C65 to consider. Eventually, Commodore did do exactly the "better C64" I'm talking about in the C65. But, like, it was the '90s by this point and it was too late for Commodore by then.
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by zip accident »

KlaxonCow wrote:But, yeah, that's my take. The real cock-up at the heart of it was that you couldn't use the VIC in 2MHz mode. And the effort should have gone into just making the VIC able to work in 2MHz, on a 4MHz bus. C64 graphics typically runs off the raster interrupt anyway - so I reckon a surprising amount of stuff would have still actually worked, switching to 2MHz, with little to no changes.
I was reading up on Acorn, and a 2MHz 6502 on a 4MHz bus was apparently what the Beebon was.
p.s. Yes, "Alternative Universe" rather than "Alternate Universe". People always make that grammatical mistake. An "alternate universe" would imply there's only two of them and they flip back and forth all the time.
Interesting point, I may well forget it, but that will be a mistake.

I'm not aiming to be aggressive here, but the idea that any "8 bit" machine was going to be good enough when the "32 bit" machines started arriving is in my view a mistake.
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

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zip accident wrote:the idea that any "8 bit" machine was going to be good enough when the "32 bit" machines started arriving is in my view a mistake.
This.

We're hypothesising about an 8 bit machine being released by Commodore against the ST, as opposed to the Amiga that they went with.

The C128 was released in early 1985, and failed because a: it was shit, and b: everyone was waiting for the ST and Amiga. Even if you made it not shit, everyone knew the ST and Amiga were coming (they were, IIRC, both publicly shown at about the same time as the C128's launch), why would you buy into something which was almost certain to be stillborn? Still, let's assume Commodore didn't do the stupid with the Z80 and CP/M and all that. Let's assume they made a super C64 with a 2MHz 8502, a 4MHz bus and a super-SID. So what? It was still going to be pissed on from a great height by the ST and Amiga. Ditching 8 bit was a smart move.
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by venusian »

There's the SAM Coupe, the CPC Plus range and the Apple IIgs to show how successful an updated 8-bit could be.
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by KlaxonCow »

tufty wrote:The C128 was released in early 1985, and failed because a: it was shit
But that's the thing. It didn't fail.

It sold millions of units. By some sources, about 4.5 million units sold - which places it comparable in sales to the Apple II (5 million sold) and outselling most other computers of the era.

I'm agreeing that it was shit, for what it could and should have been, but it was not a commercial failure in the slightest. What it was, was a horrible missed opportunity.

Indeed, what I'm asking for did already exist. The BBC Micro had a 2MHz 6502 CPU and 4MHz RAM speed, so that CPU and video can alternatively access the same RAM. Acorn did this in 1981 through third-party manufacturers. Commodore - who owned MOS Technology to fabricate their own chips - could have done this in 1985 easily.

Honestly, it's not remotely an unreasonable request. It's even the obvious engineering thing to do. Many 6502-based systems followed this "CPU and video take turns to access the memory bus" with RAM clocked double the CPU and video chip speed. The C64 did this with a 1MHz CPU, a 1MHz VIC on a 2MHz bus. So if you're upping the CPU to 2MHz, then you up the video chip to 2MHz and put it on a 4MHz memory bus (like the BBC Micro already did).

And note that if you were not upping the VIC's actual performance, so it's the same VIC-II, then you could even have had it still operate at 1MHz, but just able to handle a 2MHz clock signal coming in. The scheme could have gone from "CPU - VIC - CPU - VIC" to "CPU - VIC - CPU - nothing - CPU - VIC - CPU - nothing". So the VIC's hitting the bus exactly as often as it used to - 1MHz - and it just surrenders its second time slice. So, really, the only change you need to make is that it can accept a 2MHZ clock, but just ignores every other clock to still operate at 1MHz.

I mean, if you are making changes to the video chip then, yes, I'd encourage you did more than that - add new registers and capabilities, actually making it perform at 2MHz so it could grab more data and be less in contention with the CPU ("bad lines" and so forth).

But the most minimal thing here was just make the VIC-II still work when you switched the 6510 to 2MHz. That's it.

So you didn't have to do the supremely weird thing of sticking two video chips into the same machine. Just make the VIC happy to work whether the CPU is in 1 or 2 MHz mode. One video chip, which just works at either CPU speed.

This was the obvious, reasonable, feasible thing to do. So please understand how weird Commodore's decision here was to not simply fix the existing chip to work for both CPU speeds. But instead to develop a completely new fucking chip - the VDC - for running in 2MHz mode, while the old VIC was still in the box at the same time to run in 1MHz "C64" mode.

This was more expensive, more complicated and more stupid than what I'm asking them to do instead. Which was just to fix the chip you've already got to still work when you've upped the CPU to 2MHz. Because then you only have to pay for and design for one chip, not two. Then you can put the VDC development effort into just making a better "VIC-III" instead.

But they chose the "weird business decision" path rather than the good and obvious path. Which, you know, was unfortunately a thing Commodore went on to do a lot.

Because the business suits wanted "80 column CP/M" - for some reason - and they moved Heaven and Earth to make that shit happen, adding in an extra CPU for it. Yes, the Z80 was also the boot CPU, but only because, once you've got it in the machine, make it do something useful. Because, otherwise, in your "GO 64" mode, the Z80 was sitting in the machine doing fuck all. Sitting in there, hoping that someone might want CP/M at some point, which nobody did want to do.

An extra video chip, an extra CPU. So that we have, effectively, three completely different computer systems stuffed into one box at the same time. This was more complicated, more expensive, more confusing than what I'm suggesting.

In fact, Commodore themselves did eventually take this path later on with the C65. The real world "VIC-III" that could do all the old C64 modes, but added more graphics capability that, yes, it could do an 80 column mode.

I get it. Because I can be the weird radical one - my signature warns about my "wild words" on occasion - but, honestly, in this case, I'm being the reasonable one. The "voice of reason" to do the cheaper, easier and obvious thing, to Commodore being the weird "radicals" doing some mad shit that made no sense.

But, yes, the C128 - despite all my criticisms - was not a failure. It sold very well, thank you very much. Indeed, 4.5 million is just shy of the 5 million that the Apple II or ZX Spectrum sold throughout their lifetimes. This "sequel" of a machine might have been "Breakdance 2: Electric Boogaloo" in terms of being shit and bizarrely designed (again, the blame is not on Bil Herd for making the best out of some really bad business decisions, but on those bizarre business decisions in the first place).

But, hey, it made big box office. Like, people did go out in large numbers to buy "the new C64 with twice the RAM". Even if it was a disappointment for not being usefully more than that, when it could so easily have been.

Commercially, it wasn't a failure at all. And you might say that with the Atari ST and Amiga looming over it all, the 8-bits were dead. But Commodore did still ship 1 million C64s in 1989. You and I might have moved on by then, but it was still selling extremely well, even that late in the game. 8-bits became the "budget computers" for a while, even as the 16-bits took over.

And while I can't totally say that Commodore realised their mistake, as they started developing the C65 - far too late because, yes, by that point, the 16-bits had taken over - which actually does what I'm saying the C128 should have done, because many years had passed, so the C65 tech is more advanced than what you could have feasibly done for the C128 in 1985.

If they'd had the right "C65" attitude - make a "better C64" and double down on its gaming strengths, rather than wander off aimlessly to CP/M land - then the commercial success of the C128 would have been matched by an actually better machine, while folks waited and saved up for the Amiga. And, even in its "death throes", Commodore were still shifting a million "dead" 8-bit machines, even as late as 1989 - it would still have made commercial sense (and, indeed, the "C65" plans were exactly to pursue that but timed far too late to be useful, as Commodore was heading towards bankruptcy from their bad decisions by then).

And that's not only my take. Admittedly, the 8-bit guy was thinking a built-in 3.5" floppy would have been the thing to pursue - and he's got some good points - but I think, design-wise, my request is the simplest and most reasonable of them all. You've already got a VIC-II in the box. Just make it still work, when the CPU is clocked up to 2MHz. Just that. Don't have one of your components suddenly stop working when you switch the CPU mode. It's hardly unreasonable.
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by venusian »

Wasn't the BBC's CPU fabricated on a different process? So maybe not so "easy" for MOS.

The 116 range, introduced in 1984 had a 7501/8501 at 1.76MHz. Well, 1.76MHz when the video display was showing the border colour, otherwise 0.8Mhz. A little pool of "fast" RAM would've helped those machines perform better.
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by venusian »

These aren't available to buy (they only made 40), but it's the sort of thing I'd find quite tempting but I'd really like it have some means for easily adding 'code' to the FPGA without completely rebooting the thing. https://www.apollo-computer.com/a6000.php
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by skab »

KlaxonCow wrote:Indeed, what I'm asking for did already exist. The BBC Micro had a 2MHz 6502 CPU and 4MHz RAM speed, so that CPU and video can alternatively access the same RAM. Acorn did this in 1981 through third-party manufacturers. Commodore - who owned MOS Technology to fabricate their own chips - could have done this in 1985 easily.
Just read this...

You are again ignoring the environment in this all happened. The BBC Micro had a 4 MHz bus. Thus it needed 4MHz RAM, which was bloody expensive. So the BBC Micro was bloody expensive. And "expensive" was a word Jack Tramiel never wanted to hear. He wanted "good enough so people will buy a lot of it" and "cheap to build". And he wasn't alone, think Clive Sinclair, his machines were even cheaper constructed and built. There was never a race to make the best machine possible, everybody just wanted to build a cheap machine that sold millions.

So getting Commodore to green-light a machine with an alien CPU and all the other expensive stuff they included in the C128 was a feat in of itself. Why CP/M? Why not? It was still a platform with important business software available and if you want to check the bullet point "office computer", that was a viable route to go. And everybody wanted to build a business machine, not some games console. Think about how Clive Sinclair always despised that his machines were used for games instead of more serious stuff. He ended up building the QL, which was actually bad at everything...

Disclaimer: My first own computer was a C128. And even now I have 3 C128 and only one C64 (in therory, where is that damn thing anyway...?).
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zip accident
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by zip accident »

skab wrote:The BBC Micro had a 4 MHz bus. Thus it needed 4MHz RAM, which was bloody expensive. So the BBC Micro was bloody expensive. And "expensive" was a word Jack Tramiel never wanted to hear. He wanted "good enough so people will buy a lot of it" and "cheap to build". And he wasn't alone, think Clive Sinclair, his machines were even cheaper constructed and built. There was never a race to make the best machine possible, everybody just wanted to build a cheap machine that sold millions.
The Beebon was no dearer to buy than the C64, if the C64 was cheaper to build, that's probably what kept Commodore from going bust. I remember because I was looking for a computer to buy at tge time.
"My way is the way of not fighting":- the book of Enter the Dragon.
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