Mid Life Crisis....

Every now and then a Llamasoftie will say something interesting. Honestly! This is where we will keep these topics so that they don't get deleted.
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donky
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Post by donky »

arron wrote: I think that the important point that I was trying to focus on was that the content (art/music) is more important for commercial games now than the code. If you look at the ratio of code to artistic content from 'classic' or 'retro' games - the machine did not lend themselves to megabytes of graphics and sound. The physical mechanics of a game is relatively easy to implement - I think that most of the effort is now spend on making something look nice and filling up those shiny disks you buy with data.
Admittedly, I have only worked (and am still working) on one commercial game but it seems to me that if the game seems overbalanced towards just being disk-padding-eye-candy then its perhaps just that the end result that didn't work out as well as was hoped, the project was mismanaged or the design was lame. If the game just doesn't work then maybe all you have left is the nice graphics and sound.

As designs get more complex and graphic and sound standards increase, its not surprising to me that its so much harder come through with a quality commercial product and that the process of doing so costs a small fortune. While it seems like common sense to delay a game until it works, its doesn't seem realistic to actually do so - theres only so long you can delay a game and at some point you can't scrape together any more funds and you have to honour the obligations you made to get that f ar because you can't put them off any longer. If all the parties involved knew how long the development would take, what the end result would be like and how much it would cost when they set out I doubt any games would be made.

My point? Its to be expected that disk-padding-eye-candy is out there. Commerical game development isn't a straightforward process, rather its a gamble. I also don't think that disk-padding-eye-candy is necessarily a bad thing, look at all the people who liked American McGees Alice, a game I thought was the very definition of it. Nor do I think that this is the way the industry is going, there are lots of great games out there and lots more coming out. Maybe I have scales over my eyes, but I don't think there is an attitude to break or that games are becoming like hollywood movies.

Also, to me television is much better value than a movie - at least the series which don't pander to the casual viewer and have a continuing storyline.

arron wrote: It makes me wonder sometimes how the industry can look at a product and release it knowing that it isn't working as a game, or has bugs. As the industry has become more professional, the industry culture has moved from developer to 'suit' in control. And in a lot of cases, the 'suit' is not either a developer or even a games player. I don't think that a generic suit with no hands on experience can develop games. They certainly can't do the job of a doctor, or a soldier, or a scientist, so how do these people wind up in positions of power dictating the 'market'?
I covered that above. There isn't some magic game fairy who you can go to who will shower you with free money, arrange for your obligations to become irrelevant and who will give you all the time in the world. Theres a limit to how long development can last, some developers get breaks, some don't - very few games that I have played are perfect. Some because the product is lacking or its just aimed at a different type of player. I doubt that except for the large EA type companies that there are shady looking suits who wantonly prod around the software projects under them. Its just the way it is because thats the way it works.
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Post by junkster »

It makes me wonder sometimes how the industry can look at a product and release it knowing that it isn't working as a game, or has bugs.
Figure out how much money it takes to keep 30 people on a project for an additional month, and you'll have your answer. If a game gets so far off track that it needs a number of months to fix the gameplay, then it just might be cost prohibitive. You also run into the problem of a level taking, say, two months to create. If 10 levels are finished, then the design changes in some drastic way, there may not be the time nor money to redo those levels from scratch. So you have to make do somehow.

All of these problems stem from games requiring large teams, and hence large budgets. It's not that suits are intentionally trying to screw things up or are just clueless.

Lots of people here know about working on a personal project for a long time, not having it work out as expected, and giving it up. Now imagine that with 40 people getting paid good salaries. Ouch.
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Post by teamonkey »

junkster wrote:Lots of people here know about working on a personal project for a long time, not having it work out as expected, and giving it up. Now imagine that with 40 people getting paid good salaries. Ouch.
...And not having access to the IP so they can't complete it at a later date.

That's one thing that I don't understand. If a project is dropped, and the publisher completely cancels it, why doesn't it dump the source (not the artwork or data) into the community.

The Babylon5 game looked like it would be a corker, for example, but someone told the execs that a space shooter wouldn't sell, so they dropped it and destroyed all the work. They could get rid of all the references to Babylon5 and dump it on the Open Source community in an incomplete form. It doesn't take that much work to do. They wouldn't even sell on the engine to an independent developer. Over a year of hard work, an engine that was far ahead of anything else around (we're talking about you flying a few feet away from a 5-mile long space station rendered to scale) and they delete it rather than do anything constructive. It's such a needless waste. :x
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Post by donky »

teamonkey wrote: That's one thing that I don't understand. If a project is dropped, and the publisher completely cancels it, why doesn't it dump the source (not the artwork or data) into the community.
I think this is an unrealistic expectation. A company has spent a potentially large sum on a product over a period of time and finds it has to abandon a project. Now theres assets (code included) left from this project sure, but I think its unrealistic to expect them to spend another extra undeterminable amount to do the potentially large amount of work of removing all constraining factors preventing the release of the code. And even so, given that the game is potentially incomplete (as I assume the Babylon 5 one was) I'm dubious about any allusions to the value and usability of any released code.

teamonkey wrote: The Babylon5 game looked like it would be a corker, for example, but someone told the execs that a space shooter wouldn't sell, so they dropped it and destroyed all the work. They could get rid of all the references to Babylon5 and dump it on the Open Source community in an incomplete form. It doesn't take that much work to do. They wouldn't even sell on the engine to an independent developer. Over a year of hard work, an engine that was far ahead of anything else around (we're talking about you flying a few feet away from a 5-mile long space station rendered to scale) and they delete it rather than do anything constructive. It's such a needless waste.
How do you know how much work it takes? I put it to you that the amount of work could be small or very large depending on what the property in question is. And even determining conclusively the work involved and what aspects have to be "cleansed" might be a large task in itself. Maybe theres even a necessity of getting legal approval on all aspects.

All said and done, it doesn't surprise me at all that companies don't release their source.

Anyway, gotta catch the bus.
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Post by korruptor »

I wonder how many game engines there are that have been built from the ground up to support a more generic use than their original target game? Sure, there's a few that you can buy like RenderWare, but that almost proves the point... Personally, I question the value of Open Sourcing a game engine that's only fit to build one game, with little variation... ;-)

All that aside though, you can't just dump commercial code onto Sourceforge. Open Source is about lowering barriers to entry, and that includes making good, clean, well documented code that people can grok, learn from and extend. If you're grinding 9-5, can you honestly say you're taking such an "academic" approach to your paid code? It's 50-50 for me... And even then, documentation?! 8O :wink:
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Post by aureole »

Well, I could well be a case study in this at the moment: I've got offered a really cool job with a company, but is quite a low pay deal. Dunno what I should do now...
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Post by tryptamine »

aureole wrote:Well, I could well be a case study in this at the moment: I've got offered a really cool job with a company, but is quite a low pay deal. Dunno what I should do now...
Go for it - from my perspective, enjoyment of a job is more important than the money i'd make from it (practical considerations aside, of course).

Would the money get better after 3 months? Some places i've seen have a 3-month probationary period, after that they might decide to give you a raise.
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Post by Ahchay »

aureole wrote:Well, I could well be a case study in this at the moment: I've got offered a really cool job with a company, but is quite a low pay deal. Dunno what I should do now...
Big list... Pros and cons... Just make sure that you can pay the rent ;)

FWIW, I've always been happier working on "fun" projects rather than "well-paid" ones. Obviously, "fun and well-paid" is the ideal but <sef>...

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aureole
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Post by aureole »

Hey, thanks guys! I think I need a lot of people telling me to just do it, rather than me prevaricating. I think I'd love it and I ought to give it a go.
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Post by Fuseball »

aureole wrote:Hey, thanks guys! I think I need a lot of people telling me to just do it, rather than me prevaricating. I think I'd love it and I ought to give it a go.
Yes, definitely. I've found that opportunities to do something you love come along far less frequently than opportunities to make money doing something you care little about. You'll be kicking yourself in a month or two's time if you don't go after it. :)
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Post by aureole »

Fuseball wrote:
aureole wrote:Hey, thanks guys! I think I need a lot of people telling me to just do it, rather than me prevaricating. I think I'd love it and I ought to give it a go.
Yes, definitely. I've found that opportunities to do something you love come along far less frequently than opportunities to make money doing something you care little about. You'll be kicking yourself in a month or two's time if you don't go after it. :)
Well, as an update, I've decided to take the job, and I really hope it all goes well! Thanks to all who offered advice...
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Post by korruptor »

Wow, many congrats mate. Hope it's a lot of fun :)
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Post by Muttley »

Yeah, good luck mate! :)

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Post by ekendrick »

Good luck!
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Post by Elizian »

aureole wrote:Well, as an update, I've decided to take the job, and I really hope it all goes well! Thanks to all who offered advice...
:sheepyspace: :sheepyspace: Well done, Matt ... I am sure that you will not regret it.
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