Star Wars

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Foozwah
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Re: Star Wars

Post by Foozwah »

snaff wrote:I didn't watch anything Disney since seeing The Force Awakens. The original trilogy works on a number of levels and it was obvious the new films weren't going to be able to accomplish any such depth. It's become clear Disney didn't even have an overall story for the sequel trilogy before making them - they simply have no story to tell us. The films are not Star Wars, they're just using the brand. Obviously they work for some people, if you are a fan of the action or whatever, but Disney didn't want to bring us all along.

The Mandalorian though is fantastic.
The sequel trilogy are Star Wars. Just not the Star Wars you wanted; much the same as the prequel trilogy turned out to not be the Star Wars I wanted, but is indeed Star Wars as well.

And given how utterly shite the prequel trilogy was on a frankly staggering number of levels, I'll take the sequels any day. Even the thought of watching those again makes my eyes bleed. 8O

Glad you're enjoying Mandalorian though - it is indeed a lot of fun. :D (And... made by Disney... :wink: )
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Re: Star Wars

Post by Barney »

Went to see the last one yesterday. Took the little 'un as I couldn't get anyone to sit with him, and he's no fan of StarWars at all but he sat through the whole thing like a champ.

It was rushed - really badly paced. I've since seen the criticisms online and I largely agree with them. Lots of stuff happening one after another without any let-up. Lots of characters ignored (but their presence was delightful and might be opening doors to new stuff in the future).

BUT, I freaking loved it, every damn minute. It felt like a rollercoaster and had me riveted for the whole film. The story was great fun, they tied off a lot of threads from many of the previous films and it felt quite satisfactory, thanks very much.

I've loved all the SW films I've seen so far (which is all of them) and this is one of the better ones.
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F-ZeroOne
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Re: Star Wars

Post by F-ZeroOne »

This was intended as a review, but its always kind of hard to write anything spoiler free, so its really going to wind up as more of a... something. For context of why I wrote this like I did, I saw the film very shortly after suffering a bereavement of a close family member.

“The Rise of Skywalker” is certainly absolutely chock full of “Star Wars”. There is a lot to take in, and this is perhaps the films biggest flaw - theres almost no chance for a bit of reflection, to take a breather. It’s all “We must do this, and once we’ve done that, we must do this other thing and then we’ll have to do a thing so we can do the next thing and... “ right from the off and pretty much all the way through. There’s no Dagobah training scene, no Ewok village.

The other thing that gets a little left behind in the rush to the next bit of “Star Wars” happening is that they forget that one of the reasons “Star Wars” was successful in the first place is that it was... plausible. I realise that sounds a bit strange in a universe which includes space wizards with laser swords but in the need to turn everything up to XI [2] the sheer scale of stuff begins to stretch credulity a touch. It’s like the whole “light speed is an excuse to evade plot issues” thing from the previous two films but... look at the size of that thing!

I personally think I actually preferred “The Last Jedi” - oh, don’t get me wrong, I have issues with that installment, but at least it tried to be something different. “Rise of Skywalker” is so busy tying up plot points and providing fan service that... well, its moving so fast it forgets the lesson from the very first “Star Wars” film [3], to establish a sense of place.

Having said that, I still enjoyed the film. As a “Star Wars” film, it delivers so much “Star Wars” in one sitting you’ll likely leave the cinema feeling a bit like you’ve just been hit by a blaster set on "stun”. And here’s where it gets odd - at least for me - because all the reflection that was missing hit me as I was leaving. To the extent that I nearly had tears in my eyes.

“Star Wars” has been part of my life virtually as long as I can remember. I just missed seeing “Episode IV” in the cinema, but I did see “Empire” (though have very little memory of doing so) and definitely remember queuing up with my father and brother to see “Jedi”.

I had a Millennium Falcon and X-Wing, and remember convincing my father to take the latter apart to try and work out the mystery of why it had a battery compartment but no wiring (decades later, I found out it was due to Palitoy cost cutting compared to the Kenner originals).

I had a Darth Vader with a push-out lightsaber and a R2-D2 with periscope (though never a X-Wing pilot Luke, something which still haunts me to this day). I remember being bribed by my mother with the promise of a “Star Wars” figure if we got a lift back from the city instead of the train one day and then taking thirty minutes trying to decide which one to get (I eventually settled on Dengar).

I saw the toys littering bargain bins as their popularity waned and “Transformers” took over as the desire of every schoolboy (and the odd schoolgirl, I’m sure). Giant robots, eh. What sort of person could like such a thing?

There was the time I found a “Star Wars” annual in the waiting room of the hospital I’d been taken to check out the damage done to my nose after my brother push-kicked me into a sofa, and reading the story where Lando cosplays as Captain Harlock [4], again decades before I knew who Captain Harlock was.

I was once mocked on a train by school pupils for reading one of the then-new “Heir to the Empire” series of books, just because it said “Star Wars” on the cover. Little did they know that “Star Wars” was just a couple of years then from being the biggest story around again.

I recall downloading “The Phantom Menace” trailer on a 56K modem, and seeing the awesome trailer on a postage stamp size viewing window, months before we all found out the full horror of Jar-Jar Binks.

I once gave travel information to Admiral Ozzel [5].

What I’m trying to say is that “Star Wars” has always been there for me. That this installment with its general feel of finally closing the book on a story that has in one form or another been around nearly as long as I’ve been alive, and for personal reasons thats a theme which has a particular resonance for me right now, “The Rise of Skywalker” caught me right in the feels.

Remember.

Han shot first.

Always.

[1] Mostly - I do after all have to tell you about the utterly awesome scene where Disney merges universes and Captain America rides in to save Jar-Jar... oops!

[2] See what I did there?

[3] Yes, of course I mean Episode IV.

[4] If you’re wondering how Lando managed to pull off disguising himself as a famously white, Japanese speaking space pirate the answer is - Lando is just that good.

[5] He got better.
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KlaxonCow
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Re: Star Wars

Post by KlaxonCow »

I don't know what "Maclunkey" means, but it apparently 100% justifies Han shooting Greedo in Disney's eyes:



Keep an eye out for Han's head darting to the side implausibly to dodge Greedo's shot, which came first. Casually, you might not notice it, but if you look closely at it, then it kind of looks ridiculous and proves that CGI can't magically fix everything.

I don't get this nonsense myself. Greedo issues a death threat to Han, and Han calculates that the only way to avoid that fate is to murder Greedo first.

Sure, it's not the most stellar of moral compasses ever, but what do you expect in Mos Eisley, the most wretched hive of scum and villainy?

That's actually, for me, a narratively important point because it's his whole character arc that he starts out only giving a shit about money - "fuck the princess" / "but she's rich!" / "okay, let's save her then to get the reward money" - but then he's converted, by the cause and its dedicated heroes, to return to help the rebels and all that at the Death Star, because it's the right thing to do. If Han is a good guy to begin with, then there's no such "character journey" and it ruins the tension and surprise of him saying "goodbye", as he got his reward, but then showing up to turn the tide in the trench run scene.

Han needs to start as a bit of an arsehole to make his whole character arc make any sense.

Han shot first.
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Foozwah
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Re: Star Wars

Post by Foozwah »

KlaxonCow wrote:Han needs to start as a bit of an arsehole to make his whole character arc make any sense.
Spot on, and this is what I have never understood about any of Lucas' subsequent "revisions". It's like he doesn't actually understand his own character, or somehow forgot.
Han shot first.
Yes. Or rather, Han shot. :wink:

And yeah, he was quite clearly going to be killed if he didn't do something - as you say, Greedo has a gun pointed at him and clearly indicates he's going to kill him in a second. Han shooting under the table is literally the only way out, as well as being a total bad-ass (in a cool way) move that established character.

Kind of weird to be discussing this still in 2020, I must admit. But Lucas keeps tinkering and makes the discussion relevant again by making it worse each time, so...

Its things like this that really make me laugh at all the "Disney is killing Star Wars" nonsense. Between shitty revisions like this, tacky "special editions" that added useless crap and stripped away the magic and previous internal logic (why at the end of Jedi is Vader's force ghost now young Hayden Christensen, instead of the same age he was as at time of death like Ben and Yoda standing next to him?), and the countless examples of fuck-awful ham-fisted story telling of the prequel trilogy, Star Wars was clearly in the process of committing suicide by Lucas' hand, and someone needed to take the gun away from him.

Why they let him get back in and Maclunkey it up again here is unclear. Perhaps they thought he was going to take out the shitty "special edition" tinkering and revert it to the cinematic release event flow, and instead he gave them.... this godawful crap.
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Re: Star Wars

Post by snaff »

I've been happy sticking with Harmy's editions.

George Lucas' genius must have needed lower budgets, other great people and luck to focus it.

I just saw the real prequel, Dam Busters. I didn't know it had Leia's hair too.
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Re: Star Wars

Post by KlaxonCow »

snaff wrote:George Lucas' genius must have needed lower budgets, other great people and luck to focus it.
Indeed, if one looks into it a bit more, then Lucas always had problems with executing his ideas from the very beginning:



The original Star Wars was saved from disaster by its editors. But they were able to re-focus it, and essentially rewrite it, in part, to add - as this video covers - drama and tension that wasn't originally there in the cutting room.

In the original Lucas edit, for example, the trench run was not against the backdrop of a ticking clock, attempting to disable it before it inevitably fires and destroys a planet. They had all the time in the world. But the editors re-cut it to add that extra necessary element - and you don't notice that, yes, this whole "ticking clock" element is added by dialogue-less "B roll" of computer monitors and cutaways to Leia looking worried at the rebel base.

So there's the theory that the strength of Lucas was his vision and ideas, but he was never 100% at executing them, even in the beginning, and he needed to have great people - ruthless editors - to knock his rough cuts into decent shape.

And the real problem is that, once Star Wars became a massive success, the people surrounding Lucas became "yes men" who'd defer to his "genius" and stopped rightfully telling him "no", when he was clearly getting it wrong.

That, in the hands of the same kind of ruthless and talented editors he had with "New Hope", you could potentially edit the shit out of the prequels to laser-focus them and make them into decent movies. Chop down the crap dialogue, leave Jar Jar Binks on the cutting room floor, re-order and re-pace the scenes into a better narrative. If you think about it, then that could be entirely possible and those movies could potentially be made far better. You can see, from watching them, that the material is there but, as with the original episode, it desperately needed some folks with great editing talent to bash the bloody thing into shape.

But by the time of the prequels, Lucas was an untouchable success - a "genius" - and it stopped being possible to say "no" to him, and go in there and save his bacon by fixing his unfocused mistakes.

Which, as the video above makes clear, was always Lucas's failing from the very beginning. But he had others with sufficient power and talent to say "no" and ruthlessly fix his mistakes, who disappeared for the prequels - because, at that point, Lucas was a "genius" that you couldn't criticise. Even though, really, he absolutely should have let people do that and encouraged it, as he clearly needed some people around him to polish his rough diamonds into shining gems for him.
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Re: Star Wars

Post by Mayhem »

Indeed.
KlaxonCow wrote:In the original Lucas edit, for example, the trench run was not against the backdrop of a ticking clock, attempting to disable it before it inevitably fires and destroys a planet. They had all the time in the world. But the editors re-cut it to add that extra necessary element - and you don't notice that, yes, this whole "ticking clock" element is added by dialogue-less "B roll" of computer monitors and cutaways to Leia looking worried at the rebel base.
Editor, rather than editors here, the whole revamp of the Death Star attack was pretty much Marcia Lucas alone.
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F-ZeroOne
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Re: Star Wars

Post by F-ZeroOne »

Er, I did throw in that whole Han thing intended as a bit of a throwaway comment. I should have known better. :)
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Re: Star Wars

Post by melkig1967 »

For those who haven't seen them yet, these are a brillint insight into the British talant behind the orginal Star Wars:-

"Superfan David Whiteley celebrates how an unassuming band of designers and factory workers in Leicestershire created the toys which were to define a generation."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m ... -wars-toys

"Superfan David Whiteley celebrates the unsung British heroes behind the first film in the Star Wars' franchise, 1977’s Star Wars."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m ... -star-wars

It's particularly funny how they managed to get round the typical 1970's actor's union insistance on using British actors for all major screen roles...just stick the Americans at the bottom of the cast list and pretent they've only got bit parts...:)

Only available for another 6 days so get your skates on (although they're obviously available on many other 'less offical' sites)
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Re: Star Wars

Post by Rhythm »

melkig1967 wrote:"Superfan David Whiteley celebrates how an unassuming band of designers and factory workers in Leicestershire created the toys which were to define a generation."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m ... -wars-toys
I don't have a TV license so can't get this but how does that story square with Kenner and the idea that they handled all the design & building of the toys?
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Re: Star Wars

Post by melkig1967 »

Rhythm wrote:
melkig1967 wrote:"Superfan David Whiteley celebrates how an unassuming band of designers and factory workers in Leicestershire created the toys which were to define a generation."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m ... -wars-toys
I don't have a TV license so can't get this but how does that story square with Kenner and the idea that they handled all the design & building of the toys?
Some of the stuff remained the same (e.g. the figures) but Palitoy redesigned all the packaging and are actually much more sought after these days.

In addition, a lot of the original US toys had to be resisigned for the UK market (The Death Star for example) due to the lower production runs.
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Re: Star Wars

Post by guythp »

Everyone already probably knows, but I thought I'd mention the 16mm preservation project of the original trilogy is on archive.org (to view and download, for how long I don't know - just go into the video section search 'puggo'), the quality of the first isn't great (the other two slightly better) but it's nice that someone took the time and effort to do this.

I plugged my headphones in, turned off the lights and it took me back to when I first saw it as a 5 year old. :)
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Re: Star Wars

Post by Jamesac »

Saw Rise of Skywalker the other day and sure enough, that was a movie alright. There was zero plot for the new trilogy, just a series of events one after the other. If they ever do another trilogy I seriously hope they hammer down a single writer/director combo for the full thing in advance. Disney can pull off a ten-year trip through the Marvel universe culminating in a two-movie epic ultra-crossover but can't do a trilogy for Star Wars? I honestly don't know what happened here.

Having said that, my favorite of the bunch was Last Jedi. Force Awakens was a rerun, I'd already seen that movie before, while Rise of Skywalker was... pretty? Kinetic? Gone off the brain as soon as the lights came up. Last Jedi at least told a new story and had something to say. After Last Jedi (and the absolutely excellent Knives Out) I'm really hoping Rian Johnson gets the promised Star Wars trilogy they offered him.

I'm up to episode 3 of The Mandalorian and so far it's better in three episodes than anything Star Wars has put in the theater. Very much looking towards how it develops.
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Re: Star Wars

Post by NorthWay »

The Mandalorian just started on my local Fox last night. I see why it is getting the thumbs up.
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