I thought Windlands had motion controls. No? Oh, it does on the Vive. So does that mean eventually the PSVR version will support the Move controllers, or is the tracking just plain too shit? Cause... there aren't really a lot of games using it. The Job Sim demo was much more amusing than I expected, I'd actually like to get it, but the tracking... and with Robinson, which was looking to be priced at $40 not $60 a while ago, WTF is up with making the character hold a move controller and then just not support motion controls? Did they intend to be deceptive, or could they never get it to work well enough? Cause Sony are selling a lot of old camera and move controllers on the notion of a full setup, but they are horribly outdated tech. The PSVR claim of 1000hz tracking is BS; the camera is 60HZ so thats the absolute best real world positional update it can do. That's probably fast enough for the controllers minimal update frequency requirement especially with interpolation and filtering. But it's too slow for the headsets real needs. It can do 240hz but the resolution drops to 320 so I don't know if there's any use to trying to get a combination of resolutions and frame rates from the dual cameras, since they are somewhat limited. And the max 1280x800 resolution of the camera at 85 degree FOV also means the size of a pixel at 6-10' distance is noticeable. Hence the drift and jitter even in a darkened room. Notice it's only there when you try to remain still. As soon as you swivel your head or do something where it can get data from the MEMs on the IMU, things look smoother. A lot of variables and implementation no doubt varies from software package to software package. Hyper Dash or whatever makes me pretty queasy with out having much horizon and a lot of dramatic views. Not so close, dammit, jeez! Whereas Super Hyper Cube, I think doesn't ever make me queasy, just tired of wearing the headset. And I could race in Driveclub without getting sick, but as you start to notice the difference between the position and rotation update rates it's a little harder to fool the vestibular system.
As an aside, programming is sure changing, programming for the vestibular system, programming for the proprioceptive system, foveated rendering, scaling resolutions, realtime supersampling.. Wow guys! Ok back to it.
Course the port on the back of the Pro is USB 3.1 as may have been stated here. So obviously enough bandwidth to support a better, backwards compatible tracking system. There's no getting around needing the camera and it's still fun hardware that has a lot of software. It's kinda big and clunky and heavy for all the talk of it's comfort. I'd say resolution doubling and weight halving is necessary for real adoption and that supposedly requires building a new fab for 5" 4k panels and about 5 years of development to procure.
Nice to see that Vive is wireless and it can probably work with Rift also. That battery pack obviously needs to go on a belt. I'm damn tempted to experiment with removing the counterbalance weights from the Sony headset! 38 years old, VR finally gets here, and I've been starting to get neck mobility problems the past few years. So annoying. Anyway I'd expect headsets to continue to evolve quickly with lower weight and cost, and integrated eye tracking, but after that it will be a while to see the resolution upgrade.
In the meantime I expect Sony is laughing all the way to the bank by releasing the PSVR and Pro on separate dates while unloading a ton of cameras and move controllers, while next E3 they'll probably have to show a better controller and tracking setup to remain competitive. Of course that will require the Pro. But at least they can use the same headset.
To support the Sony headset on PC should be relatively trivial with a USB sniffer for someone with that kind of experience. Where does that stand? Of course, the latency and frame rate on most laptop or PC cameras are even worse, but it would be nice to see a free wrapper/driver bit of software.
I've got a small trick up my sleeve about it all that I'm considering too.
Next thing is to get second or third gen controllers standardized. Software devs can't be expected to support 5 generations of controllers on 3 different platform, and consumers will not buy 15 sets of $200 motion controllers. Get the controllers standardized by next year, please!
I wish the rift vive and psvr threads were all together and that polybius and nintendo switch weren't in separate sub forums.
Oh, and my pop went for the SSD even for the pro, pretty spendy and it's about a 30-40% decrease in load times so not as big a boost as PC typically see's, apparently it has v2 instead of v3 interface for the drive. But he got the force feedback wheel and a flight stick, should be fun for ace combat eventually. Hopefully it will work in EVE. Any racing games besides track mania and drive club? He is excited about some other upcoming racer but I thought I heard that the Sony racer doesn't support VR... And no ridge racer? Man I would kill for quality VR RR and Wipeout.
Windland motion controls?
I didn't play Batman on the regular ps4 so I won't be able to really see any of the visual improvement that is apparently small but there (no foveated rendering). Will see how the move wands work there. Occlusion is an obvious problem with the single camera tracking, too. But at least they didn't put shit lenses in them. Such a shame that both Vive and Rift suffer from that and apparently can't be fixed by replacing the lenses easily. But it is obvious that the Rift has superior IPD adjustment capability, because it's able to keep the sweet spot of the lens properly aligned between the cornea and screen. Good time to be an industrial optics engineer.
And as for avatars, do us all a favor and pick your battles devs! It's not really feasible to track anything beyond head and hands so it's difficult to really not mess with the human proprioceptive system. E.g. Battlezone. No avatar. Ok fine! The controls should move inside the cockpit, as I recall they don't, but it's a minor quibble since it doesn't seem to support a dual track control method. Super Hyper Cube. No avatar. No problem! It's got a very stable set of 'main character' cubes at an appropriate distance to the gamer and a few graphical trimmings to increase visual reference. Notice I didn't say horizon. It could probably be entirely vertical visual cues, but it's the consistency of a reference point that helps the gamer influence their brains preferential interpretation of input data, which in this case is out of sync in ways like not being full body motion. Now look at Eve. How annoying! I can allllmost sorta feel like that is my avatar, but even if I can sit in the right spot and right orientation, that's not the size of my body. I'm bigger than tat pilot. So it already feels weird. Then you add in differences between the avatar movement and your body and that is just not right proprioceptive visual cues. Finally, look all the way back or down. Where the fuck is my head? Put me in a god damn helmet, obviously, not just this void of a neck and an in game camera placed higher than it should be in reference to where my real eyeballs are compared to where that small body in a different position would be. It's like, why even try? Do something more abstract, leave it out, make different options for people. Ultimately full body positional information wold be great to have but we don't. Aim within the limits of the hardware and don't make the best flying game and the hottest VR property in years be flying around by a bunch of headless horseman! It's obvious! Where is my EVE helmet patch?! Maybe a DLC for christmas with a little ornament that can hang from the rearview mirror?
It also sucks that the PSVR style hanging display is really the best thing for glasses users. Don't have them myself. But even as FOV goes up it's still most immersive to have the display as close (large) as possible, plus that puts less centrifugal and centripetal forces on the face and head when moving the additional mass of the display. But, the real problem is that the display is not as stable, and that small amount of image wobble doesn't help immersion or sim sickness. I bet that Rift and Vive are more stable of an image from screen to retina with less sway and wobble of the physical display itself.
I briefly tried Vive and Rift earlier in the summer. This stuff has certainly come a long way. I think the tracking is really the most important, what are you guys finding? Lighthouse is nice but what is the real world case with reflections and interference compared to other devices?
Last before that was maybe around 1994 or 1995 trying one of the Amiga 3000 based Virtuality units playing Dactyl whatever. Things have come so far! Where's JOUST VR! And defender?! And Wipeout!
Yum yum yum
I do find it a bit of a burden and a bit too much at times, I got old this past year, it sucks. And it's rather exclusive. It's hard to coordinate people to do anything together, so while faceboook vr might work by networking active users, it might lead to more isolation from others in real life and complicate peoples ability to navigate day to day interpersonal interaction in the long run. I think that a big part of the reason Apple leans to AR; not just cause they refuse to properly maintain focus on high performance realtime graphics API's and drivers, but because user adoption of devices that are not exclusively VR is likely to be much higher than niche gamers connected online at home, while AR users are still out doing things, having fun, getting things done, socializing as the tech becomes more common and accepted... I've wanted AR glasses for at least a decade, probably 15 years, to the point of considering building my own hacked up crap version of a wearable. It's getting pretty close. Kinda funny and alarming to see that Apple watch users do worse losing weight than people that don't use it. Obviously more time looking at what your watch says than actually exercising is a point blank demonstration of the limits of the benefits to multitasking. So hopefully AR will help figure out how to mitigate some overarching challenges that prevalent technology use is presenting to society.
The PSVR claim of 1000hz tracking is BS; the camera is 60HZ so thats the absolute best real world positional update it can do.
I think the whole sensors array are actually update more than 1000 Hz, true the camera can only do 60hz but the camera is only partially used for tracking the "most" comes from the sensors and the SW behind them, what I can guarantee you the prediciton/tracking corrects for the image all time even during image display so essentialy the image itself gets "corrected" at MORE than 120 fps.
I still don't get it all about this "wobbly/unstable" we have our "dev system" we wrote where "if a pixel would be moving/wobbling you'd see it and it would be unuseable" .. we never seen it .. so at this point makes me think "wtf have they done with SW ?".
About the "too much in your face things" I've seen "a few" and I found it quite annoying, also I think there's specifically some TRC that say "you should not do that" .
drift and jitter even in a darkened room. Notice it's only there when you try to remain still.
Could you please tell me "what game and what exactly you see" ?
Try as I may here I am not 100% sure of what you are talking about.
The only time I see a drift was on one "old" PSVR unit after 6 AND 1/2 HOURS OF CONTINUOUS USE down the exhibition in Manchester, mind you that point the unit was quite a bit hot as well and started to drift.
One of the two, the other one did not.
If you are talking about a bit of "moire/pixel crawl" like if you are looking at an horizontal line(s) while staying totally still ok this is noticeable but only in a thing like "pure bright/white line(s) on a really dark background" bit of an "edge case" really.
[edit] - I am trying to ask to "one of those super mega guys" ( at Sony ) into this about this kind of stuff you ( and others ? ) are complaining about, I'll be curious to see if I get some answers to all this.
Because I am not sure I understand perfectly "what you are talking about here" but I want to try to be sure that "whatever bad you see you are NOT going to see it in our game"
drift and jitter even in a darkened room. Notice it's only there when you try to remain still.
Could you please tell me "what game and what exactly you see" ?
Try as I may here I am not 100% sure of what you are talking about.
The only time I see a drift was on one "old" PSVR unit after 6 AND 1/2 HOURS OF CONTINUOUS USE down the exhibition in Manchester, mind you that point the unit was quite a bit hot as well and started to drift.
One of the two, the other one did not.
If you are talking about a bit of "moire/pixel crawl" like if you are looking at an horizontal line(s) while staying totally still ok this is noticeable but only in a thing like "pure bright/white line(s) on a really dark background" bit of an "edge case" really.
[edit] - I am trying to ask to "one of those super mega guys" ( at Sony ) into this about this kind of stuff you ( and others ? ) are complaining about, I'll be curious to see if I get some answers to all this.
Because I am not sure I understand perfectly "what you are talking about here" but I want to try to be sure that "whatever bad you see you are NOT going to see it in our game"
I get drift and jitter with mine. I can try to explain.
The drift is worse in some games than others, and Driveclub is the worst for this. During a race, the view directly ahead will gradually rotate so I find myself gradually turning my head to compensate. So after even just one race, I find my head is no longer facing the camera, but instead facing somewhere to the left or right. Holding the Options button doesn't help, as it just seems to reset the view x,y position, not the rotation. I've noticed this rotational drift in some other games too, but to a lesser extent. On the other hand, some games are absolutely fine, such as Superhypercube which seems to stay rock solid in the middle the whole time, no rotation. So it makes me wonder if it's a software issue, but I don't know.
Jitter is most noticable in games where you don't move. For example in the Playroom VR toy room, I can be sat there not moving my head, but the view is constantly wobbling back and forth slightly. It was making me seasick to start with, but I think I've got more used to it now.
I've tried different lighting conditions, fiddling with all the options, moving the camera above and below the TV, but nothing seems to help. The distance between me and the camera is about 2.5m. I've read online that some people have fixed the issue by taping the camera to a mic stand or camera tripod and moving it closer, but I don't have either one to test with. So far I've just put up with it and accept that it happens sometimes.
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the view directly ahead will gradually rotate so I find myself gradually turning my head to compensate.
This is what I saw happening in ONE of the two testkits we had and only ONE of the PSVR units we had after 6 HOURS 1/2 of constant use, the PSVR was "reasonably warm" at that point.
At the present I have 1. NO idea why is that , 2. NO idea why one was doing that and the other not.
Holding the Options button doesn't help, as it just seems to reset the view x,y position, not the rotation. I've noticed this rotational drift in some other games too
I've been SCOLDED by Sony "because I made a camera reset that resets that too", implying that "they THINK resetting rotation too should not be done".
I told them "NO, YOUR documentation says 'you must implement reset' but specifically DOES NOT says 'how' and actually says is left to the game type/implementation" .
Besides, the "dashboard" resets rotation too,so if they do it I can't see why I should not do it.
I am going to cut and paste all this and pass it "to someone I know" I want to see if he's going to reply me anything about it.
[edit] - just sent an "extensive email" to one person I know that "should be working a lot on all those issues", I am really curious as well to hear something back from him on this subject ( and a couple of other things I added in ).
Pinball FX2 VR hits PlayStation VR in North America and HTC Vive on November 29, 2016 for $14.99, and PlayStation VR in Europe at a later date (we’ll update this blog once we have a date confirmed).
I know it seems a dumb waste of VR to a lot of people, but VR pinball is one of the main things I've wanted in years. It's just something where... in video pinball, the camera angles all assume you're either 4ft tall or 7ft tall, and auto-scrolling tables are a headache so I usually keep them locked on the flippers, but sometimes I want to peer at the back... and sometimes it's hard to tell what's foreground and background...
...so VR just seems like the perfect thing I need in video pinball. And with Zen, that brings all sorts of things that aren't possible on real tables, so that's just really, really cool.
Mqark wrote:Have to say, I'm getting that "backed the wrong horse" feeling every time I see Vive and PSVR co-releases with no mention of Oculus.
I know I've got my own thread to go of and feel sorry for myself in, but there's just more people here to hear me cry!
Polybius will be for OR as well, as you know we demonstrated it.
Sadly "not sure" about Vive yet, problem is at the moment "we don't have immediate plans to get one" .. the cost barrier is "a bit of a thing" and from what I saw "does not look that much more incredible than OR" so for the moment OR, Vive later probably.
