Gay?

[Yak]

Speaking for myself, I would be uncomfortable around *anybody* of whatever orientation if it seemed that that was their entire *life*... whether that was a straight bloke who lived to shag women and who talked of nothing else, or a gay man who was just gay, gay, gay all the time and never actually... well.. just a bloke occasionally .

Hrm. I have to interject here. Isn't this the same as your Fluffiness thing? or your coding thing?

Well, hardly... yes, a part of my life is fluffiness, and a part of my life is coding... but there are other parts of my life too, and if you talk to me I don't talk only about fluffiness, or coding...

Speaking for myself again, I don't like to be around people of either orientation whose whole life revolves around their sexuality,

Has the Yak really just said that? Doesn't your life revolve around Fluffiness?

Fluffiness is a part of my life, sure, but it doesn't define it!

\
(:-) - Yak
/

[randomdude]

Fair enough. I spose its just thats theonly kinda side I see of you on here.

[korruptor]

...wants your Konix Speedking in her personal area...

Blimey, why didn't I think of that when I was young?! I had two speedkings then...

Sorry. I'll shut up now.

[korruptor]

Actually, three, if you count...

D'oh. I'm definitely shutting up now...

[gravy]

Nasty klicky konix krap.

You only bought em cos they started with a K.

On the gay thing I suspect this thread may have leapt into life cos of my postings on the thread about what sort of bags do you like (http://www.yakyak.org/viewtopic.php?t=12446&highlight=) as this one popped into existence very shortly after.

Please don't confuse what I posted with bigotry in anyway, I'm just a bit childish really. In 1976 (Ruislip Gardens Primary playground) the wind changed and a part if my brain set permanently. It was the piss taking part unfortunately.

[Yak]

Fair enough. I spose its just thats theonly kinda side I see of you on here.

Oh, come on, those aren't the *only* things I talk about, even on here .

\
(:-) - Yak
/

[gilesgoat]

But from my own observations at university, when people were first coming out, they desperately wanted some image to associate with, to attach a label to themselves out of pride, and thus started dressing in the "stereotypical image" of a gay person from the media. So I when I first got to uni, I believed the media-stereotype of gay people wasn't true to life, then a lot of people I met there proved me wrong. Of course, most people then whiled back after a while and didn't (as you said) form a large part of their identity around their sexuality, but merely incorporated it into who there were.

Yes, I agree with this and had the same kind of experience.

I'd dare to say that campus and University are anyway a "particular
place" for the kind of people and age of the people involved where
this phenomenon is more accentuated.

I did to see the thing "with the more open mind I can have" but
it's not a matter of "open mind or not", reality and facts make you
see with your own eyes that what you just said above is true, of
course as usual "it's not the same for EVERYBODY", but some
majority it is.

Of course it's even "normal" this happends in such situations, I mean
who at that age/place is looking for "deep involving lifetime relationships
and such ?" .. most of the people, even if with good and honest feelings
mostly look "to be happy" (not to say "for fun" that could hurt someone)
so some behaviours is exactly what one can expect.

And this is true of course for both straight and gay people, no big
difference, even if I've no doubt to affirm "it's more common among
gays than in straight people" or at least "is more easely visible".

Actually, on a tangent, what does make me think is the co-opting of gay culture as cool, and gay bars suddenly being the "places to be seen" and having hordes of cackling thirty-something women descend on them as gay men are much nicer and won't leer at them.

Well .. many could disagree but I agree with you.

Let's say I look with an eyebrow lift this "tendency" to consider
"gay culture as cool".

If with "gay culture" we identify some behaviours like "easy partners",
"lots of occasional fun","sharing","must have some kind of fun every
week end" well .. I don't blame people that does/like it, nobody can
be blamed or judged for but I simply say as I decided "it's not
for me" then, for *me* that culture is "wrong" and I don't accept it.

This simply means that I don't want to be in such thing and nothing
more, who like/wish to do it is free to do it but from my point of
view is definitely not cool at all.

And I add I think I "can" say it because for some time I've been
into a bit of that .. I tought I was be able to understand/accept
something .. but definitely it turned out to be I am not and I don't
regret anything, is only the way I am made and I decided to be.

Well .. ehhehhe .. most gay bars I'd dare to say are not cool at
all and I seldom seen women in them ...

What I've seen was a mix of quite young people and quite old
ones ... usually some people go there because they feel they
are in a place where they can feel comfortable without fear to
be blamed or such and they can spend some time with their BF
or something, some go there for "hunting" just hoping to find
some nice fellow for a week end thing, some go there simply
because they don't have a better place to go ...

Of course there are places and places, some are "more appropiate"
for one purpose or another.

Well .. for some people all that is cool .. for some not

I have other ranges of places I consider "cool", most of them are
not pubs and stink beasty

Anyway to be honest I've never been able those time to spend much
money so that's one reason I think I never seen a gay bar I might
consider "cool" .. the cool ones were too expansive for me to go
in

[PVB]

Nasty klicky konix krap.

You only bought em cos they started with a K.

You 'old 'im k, and I'll thump 'im!

[sack]

I've had enough of you small-minded bastards and your speedking bashing

[PVB]

I've had enough of you small-minded bastards and your speedking bashing

He started it.

[korruptor]

Nasty klicky konix krap.

You only bought em cos they started with a K.

You 'old 'im k, and I'll thump 'im!

S'ok. Gaz plays with a crap Quickshot II that he sprayed gold and pretends Dominic Diamond gave him.

[PVB]

Nasty klicky konix krap.

You only bought em cos they started with a K.

You 'old 'im k, and I'll thump 'im!

S'ok. Gaz plays with a crap Quickshot II that he sprayed gold and pretends Dominic Diamond gave him.

I think he nicked it off Mayhem.

[Ryan]

whether that was a straight bloke who lived to shag women and who talked of nothing else, or a gay man who was just gay, gay, gay all the time and never actually... well.. just a bloke occasionally

IMHO men multitask. We're always thinking about sex, but manage to get other stuff done too (i.e. have a life, family, hobbies, whatever).

Or is that just me? %-)

[Dave]

Well the problem there is a lot of people seem to relate gender to sexuality. One thing I was asked when I came out as female was whether that meant I was now more into guys. I had to gently explain that gender and sexuality are different concepts.

Ah, someone who understands proper sexual terminology! Good job, and excellent topic!

Gender: Male or Female (Or another form, like YY or XXY Chromosomes. This is rare, but it does happen in about 1/1000 births.). You cannot change this.

Sexuality: How you identify yourself as. Man? Woman? Something else? You can change this.

First let me get to the fear question. People who are prejudice are, in their heart, afraid of something. This may be change, the unknown, or something that they perceive as being wrong, dirty, or bad. From this fear, prejudice develops.

Some prejudice is deep-seeded hatred built into someone at an early age. I have many friends who are from Israel and many friends from Arabic nations (Iran, Pakistan). The Israelis especially, HATE Arabic people. This was taught to them at an early age and reinforced through other events (wars/politics/family/friends/ect...). A few of my Arabic friends are the same as well, but not all. This type of social conditioning is built on fear as well, but also a lack of non-distorted education. Education normally eliminates these problems.


Back to lisawolf's question, why are men afraid as being perceived as Gay? Most of it is social conditioning. It's considered dirty or immorally wrong by many. These views have shaped many peoples perceptions of the issue, resulting in male gayness as being an undesirable social status in society. Nobody wants to be accidentally associated with this labeling, and due to the stigmata generated around it, some gay people don’t even want to be identified as gay either.

Another part of it comes from teasing and taunting. There are many insults directed towards these types of lifestyles. Being labeled as gay or lesbian in some social circles can scare people away from you, lowering your social status. With this come numerous problems. You’re unpopular, unwanted, and inhuman.

Finally, the ideas of proper masculinity and femininity are rejected when homosexual and/or transsexual lifestyles are pursued. Masculinity and femininity are NOT programmed into people when they are born. These are social traits that are taught to us as we grow up. Characteristics that are considered sexual are defined by this. In America, large breasts, makeup, skinny/fit body, and long blond hair are considered sexually appealing for women. Large muscles and a “manly” look are considered sexually appealing for men. These traits help to designate what is masculine and what is feminine.

Obviously, other cultures and societies around the world have different definitions of what is and is not considered sexually appealing. In many Asian nations, large breasts are associated with materialism, something that is shunned in those societies. I’m sure you’ve all seen pictures of Thailand women who put rings around their necks, stretching them out to ridiculous lengths. Without these rings, they are considered unappealing sexually, and are rejected by their society.



The coolest part though is if they’re caught cheating on their spouse. Then, their rings are cut. Since their neck muscles are weak and relatively messed up, their heads flop over and they suffocate to death.

So, your sexuality is mainly defined by society. What it finds sexy is what you find sexy. What it finds unacceptable is what you find unacceptable.

What helps society to define proper sexuality? Usually it has to do with health. Whatever society perceives as being healthy is usually considered to be sexually appealing. This is very common in the animal kingdom. But we’re humans, so there’s a little bit more to it than that. Style and fads can shape this definition as well.

I’ll write more in a bit. School comes first!

[Harlequin]

Speaking for myself again, I don't like to be around people of either orientation whose whole life revolves around their sexuality,

Has the Yak really just said that? Doesn't your life revolve around Fluffiness?

Fluffiness is a part of my life, sure, but it doesn't define it!

This does leads me to consider, though, that you have an unusual perspective on how one's sexuality can impact just about every area of one's life (in terms of how one lives it and views it, rather than what one converses about). Naturally, you're not just "a fluffy" or "a coder" or "a hippioid" -- all of those attributes and many more mingle with and influence each other to create a wonderfully unique person.

But from my own observations at university, when people were first coming out, they desperately wanted some image to associate with, to attach a label to themselves out of pride, and thus started dressing in the "stereotypical image" of a gay person from the media. So I when I first got to uni, I believed the media-stereotype of gay people wasn't true to life, then a lot of people I met there proved me wrong. Of course, most people then whiled back after a while and didn't (as you said) form a large part of their identity around their sexuality, but merely incorporated it into who there were.

Yes, I agree with this and had the same kind of experience.
I'd dare to say that campus and University are anyway a "particular
place" for the kind of people and age of the people involved where
this phenomenon is more accentuated.

I think that, starting from around adolescence, people tend to graduate from trying to fit in with everyone to looking for a subculture to fit into -- a switch from "I'm a human" to "I'm one of us", where that "us" is distinct from everyone else[*][/size]. This is probably, for most of those affected, where the previously mentioned self-identification-by-sole-aspect begins. For some, it seems, that sole aspect assumes such importance (due to reaction to prejudice or other factors) that they never properly achieve its incorporation but instead continue to define themselves almost entirely by that aspect alone.

Of course, those familiar with Illuminatus! will also recognise the phenomenon of people finding security in being perceived as a stereotype . An overtly camp man, for example, may be seen as symbolically castrated, therefore posing no threat to heterosexual males or television audiences.

Concerning the media, I feel that youngsters, having decided that they are "gays", tend to look to such sources for cues as to how to behave as "a gay" in the absence of suitable real-life role models. Up until fairly recently just about all visible media images were outrageously camp. I rather hope that the largely diversity now being seen will result in fewer lads in future feeling a need to become queens (although I also hope that they won't be as bland as current stereotypes -- why can't we see more characters like the longhaired mechanic Bradley who used to be in Crossroads?. Okay, I'll stop drooling now ).

Actually, on a tangent, what does make me think is the co-opting of gay culture as cool, and gay bars suddenly being the "places to be seen" and having hordes of cackling thirty-something women descend on them as gay men are much nicer and won't leer at them.

Well .. many could disagree but I agree with you.
Let's say I look with an eyebrow lift this "tendency" to consider
"gay culture as cool".
If with "gay culture" we identify some behaviours like "easy partners",
"lots of occasional fun","sharing","must have some kind of fun every
week end" well .. I don't blame people that does/like it, nobody can
be blamed or judged for but I simply say as I decided "it's not
for me" then, for *me* that culture is "wrong" and I don't accept it.
[...]
And I add I think I "can" say it because for some time I've been
into a bit of that .. I tought I was be able to understand/accept
something .. but definitely it turned out to be I am not and I don't
regret anything, is only the way I am made and I decided to be.

"Gay culture" is, AIUI, largely a set of stereotypes and fashions maintained in this country by a tiny, incestuous group of publishers and club owners (some of whom also run the "Mardi Gras" festival that replaced the free "Gay Pride" summer event -- and I note that "Mardi Gras" publicity these days hardly mentions sexuality at all). Promoting the view that being "gay" means buying certain clothes, music and other products pleases advertisers.

The aspect of sexual promiscuity probably stems from many factors. Don't most young men (and older ones outside of committed relationships), regardless of sexual preference, dream of being able to shag anyone they fancy? The "scene" allows large numbers of blokes to gather together in high testosterone environments all, theoretically, with the same thing on their minds. There are rarely any constraints such as "family" to consider and most of the previously accepted rules of heterosexual relationships can be dumped. It seems obvious that the only thing homosexual men have in common is that they fancy and want to have sexual encounters with other men (that other factor, love, appears to be mostly irrelevant here, possibly because in the early days of the "scene" long-term gay relationships seemed an impossible dream for most). I don't think that this is problematic for most single people (as long as suitable care is taken); it's those long-term relationships that are most likely to complicate things. I know people who have polygamous and polyamorous arrangements that seem to work but we both know from our personal experiences that they can be unstable. It's not uncommon for one person to change their views and desire a more exclusive relationship (for sexual tastes are fluid, not permanently set), leading to much nastiness and lasting emotional scars. (I once thought that jealously was a pointless reaction that should be overcome with simple rationality, until that bastard emotion leaped out from nowhere and pounced on my heart). Good luck to those who can manage it, though.

H.

[*][/size] Which reminds me -- I must get around to seeing City of God at some point.
_________________
How To Write Good
23. Don't repeat yourself, or say again what you have said before.