Politics Thread!

[Dio]

There's plenty of reasons not to allow people to publicly demonstrate support for Hamas. At the same time, it's not unreasonable to point out that if Israel had had more reasonable policies themselves, particularly with respect to settlements, then Hamas might not have been elected in the first place. As everyone so far has noted, it's just a total mess.

It's only very recently (2016) that any opposition to Israel has been classed as inherently antisemitic. It's made it *incredibly* difficult to have any level of nuanced conversation.

No, this has been going on since at least the 70s. (I think I could offer an argument that it's only become visible that recently because before the modern 'woke' years fewer people noticed it; a more cynical take is that it was ignored by the press until it was a stick to hit Corbyn with). As with almost everything else in this chaos, it serves both sides' purposes; antisemites hide behind "reasonable criticism of Israel" and unreasonable politicians hide behind "all criticism of Israel is antisemitism". Another mess.

[Rhythm]

It's only very recently (2016) that any opposition to Israel has been classed as inherently antisemitic. It's made it *incredibly* difficult to have any level of nuanced conversation.

No, this has been going on since at least the 70s. (I think I could offer an argument that it's only become visible that recently because before the modern 'woke' years fewer people noticed it; a more cynical take is that it was ignored by the press until it was a stick to hit Corbyn with).

I was looking at the IHRA definition and the later adoption of that by various nations. But this is where it gets messy again. The IHRA state right there that not all criticism of Israel is inherently antisemitic. But that part's been lopped out when adopted by countries like the UK.

As with almost everything else in this chaos, it serves both sides' purposes; antisemites hide behind "reasonable criticism of Israel" and unreasonable politicians hide behind "all criticism of Israel is antisemitism". Another mess.

Illustrating the "nuanced conversation" point I made. You've detailed two types of bad actor there but there's a third player in the game - the prominent celebrity Jews who use the definition to shut down any conversation whatsoever

"Mess" doesn't even begin to adequately cover it

[Dio]

I deliberately didn't phrase it like that specifically because when you actually use the name of the religion in the conversation it loads it up with - potentially antisemitic - baggage.

Avoiding describing anyone as "a Jew" is probably a good thing, bordering on a requirement, in these circumstances, right? The way you phrase it you expose yourself to accusation, whether groundless or not, and I chose my words carefully to try to minimise the possibility of that.

[Rhythm]

I deliberately didn't phrase it like that specifically because when you actually use the name of the religion in the conversation it loads it up with - potentially antisemitic - baggage.

Avoiding describing anyone as "a Jew" is probably a good thing, bordering on a requirement, in these circumstances, right? The way you phrase it you expose yourself to accusation, whether groundless or not, and I chose my words carefully to try to minimise the possibility of that.

Completely fair and it's absolutely not the kind of chat (or language) I'd use outside of a grouping like this.

It's all part of that muddied nuance. Nobody would ever feel unsure about labelling someone a celebrity Christian. The definitions and how they're latched onto by, as we've said, bad actors, creates a serious problem in how anyone can even discuss issues. And if people can't talk openly then everything becomes mixed and indirect, meanings and intentions are hidden and coded. How the eff are we supposed to "diplomacy" our way out of something we can't even talk about properly?

[F-ZeroOne]

Twitter post that says some things I was thinking of stating here, and a lot more besides, and much better than I likely would have expressed things:

https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/171 ... fw26s%3D19

[Rhythm]

Twitter post that says some things I was thinking of stating here, and a lot more besides, and much better than I likely would have expressed things:

https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/171 ... fw26s%3D19

That's excellent

[KlaxonCow]

"An eye for an eye just leaves the whole world blind"
- Mahatma Ghandi

[zip accident]

Twitter post that says some things I was thinking of stating here, and a lot more besides, and much better than I likely would have expressed things:

https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/171 ... fw26s%3D19

So, Klaxon Cow isn't alone in making over long posts.

What I think will happen is that Israel will expel all the Palestinians from Palestine. Then it will be business as usual, whatever that turns out to mean.

[snaff]

It's only very recently (2016) that any opposition to Israel has been classed as inherently antisemitic. It's made it *incredibly* difficult to have any level of nuanced conversation.

No, this has been going on since at least the 70s. (I think I could offer an argument that it's only become visible that recently because before the modern 'woke' years fewer people noticed it; a more cynical take is that it was ignored by the press until it was a stick to hit Corbyn with).

I was looking at the IHRA definition and the later adoption of that by various nations. But this is where it gets messy again. The IHRA state right there that not all criticism of Israel is inherently antisemitic. But that part's been lopped out when adopted by countries like the UK.

As with almost everything else in this chaos, it serves both sides' purposes; antisemites hide behind "reasonable criticism of Israel" and unreasonable politicians hide behind "all criticism of Israel is antisemitism". Another mess.

Illustrating the "nuanced conversation" point I made. You've detailed two types of bad actor there but there's a third player in the game - the prominent celebrity Jews who use the definition to shut down any conversation whatsoever

"Mess" doesn't even begin to adequately cover it

A lot of idiots said it was racist to be critical of the EU. Racism is just the default accusation from hysterical morons and it's become a completely meaningless concept.

[PFVA]

"An eye for an eye just leaves the whole world blind"
- Mahatma Ghandi

So true.

[PFVA]

Don't tell me they are not going to allow children and women to cross the Gaza boarder into Egypt.

[(o)(o)]

https://skwawkbox.org/2023/10/14/labour ... -expelled/

[PFVA]

It seem they are a bit hyper in your side of the world.


The U.S.A. democrats have a different approach:

"The mass expulsion of over 1 million people in a day is ethnic cleansing," Rep. Ilhan Omar, D-Minn., tweeted Friday. "The UN has already said this is 'impossible' and will have 'devastating humanitarian consequences.' We have to stop ignoring the thousands of Palestinian lives lost and millions at stake! We must use all diplomatic tools stop this."

Fm ABC News via Yahoo news https://www.yahoo.com/gma/house-progres ... fb&tsrc=fb

And 55 house democrats signed a document regarding the situation of the people in Gaza

https://schakowsky.house.gov/sites/evo- ... n-gaza.pdf



And Sen Bernie Sanders is openly accusing Israel of violating international law:

"For many, it is no secret that Gaza has been an open-air prison, with millions of people struggling to secure basic necessities," Sanders said in a statement issued on Wednesday.

"The targeting of civilians is a war crime, no matter who does it," said Sanders. "Israel's blanket denial of food, water, and other necessities to Gaza is a serious violation of international law and will do nothing but harm innocent civilians."

https://news.yahoo.com/bernie-sanders-s ... fb&tsrc=fb



We had at demonstrations here for the people of Palestine. And Paris is having them.
I haven't seen Hamas flags on them. I have seen Palestinian flags.

[zip accident]

This struck me as a more or less correct interpretation of events:

Twitter post that says some things I was thinking of stating here, and a lot more besides, and much better than I likely would have expressed things:

https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/171 ... fw26s%3D19

The one thing that I think is wrong in that is that it suggests there are palestinians who don't hate Israel, I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of palestinians do hate Israel, and Hamas represents them fairly. Which doesn't make either side wrong, or right, it just makes the current/immediately previous situation unsustainable.

[KlaxonCow]

The Daily Fail lied out of its arse to the public because it wanted cash.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... nsons-aide

Covid inquiry: Daily Mail wanted people back at work to revive sales – Johnson aide

Document reveals James Slack’s messages about article prompted concern from Matt Hancock

Boris Johnson’s top media official said the Daily Mail’s rush to get people working in offices during the first Covid lockdown came from being “desperate” to sell newspapers, according to documents released to the official inquiry.

James Slack said a Mail headline in April 2020 predicting masks could allow people to return to work was spurred by a desire to revive their circulation figures. He had previously been the paper’s political editor before working for Johnson in No 10.

I know. No-one is surprised in the slightest by this revelation, that newspapers lie - potentially putting lives at risk, with this particular lie - in order to serve their own personal political interests.

But as newspapers - and media in general - are reluctant to report on each other for fear of sparking a civil war between them (with the exception of Murdoch having a pop at the Beeb every 3 seconds because, in that case, he uses the Beeb's public service impartiality as a "human shield", knowing they can't directly retaliate, to basically help him sell satellite dishes for his slightly-shit "hundreds of repeats channels" TV service. Or at least he did when he still owned it and, these days, I think it's just personal vengeance, because it didn't actually work and they still easily kick his arse in the TV ratings), then we so rarely get to hear it openly confirmed in public.

That which we all know from just reading their shit. That they've basically all just massive cunts.