KlaxonCow wrote:But most people are face-mask-less. Including nearly all the Tesco employees - and Tesco really ought to look into that, lest a "virus bomb" walk into their store one day and take out their entire staff in one fell swoop. They've got gloves, but they've not yet installed any screens at the checkouts.
Ha, yeah, the cynic in me just thought "well they probably have no sick pay and they're recruiting like stink so it doesn't matter, there's more than a few people needing to earn a few bob through all this.."
As regards improvised masks, yes I'd seen a fair bit of that the previous week when I was last out.
The supermarkets are allowed to employ migrants without work visas while under emergency powers.
How insane is that? People stuck here need compassion and support, not exploitation. Supermarket's have had their business triple. Their prices are as high as they dare to push them before the government steps in to regulate them. But the profit still isn't enough for them to employ people at a fair wage.
My situation has turned a little sour. There's a government subsidy scheme so businesses can keep staff employed during the downturn. The government gives the employer $585 per week per employee and is meant to make "best effort" to top that up to 80% of their usual pay. Most businesses are, even extending that to 100%. My employer is topping up to 80% the first four weeks, 50% the fifth and six, 30% the last four (if it goes on that long). 50% means most people will only be getting the government subsidy without any assistance from our employer.
For context, they are one of the largest companies in NZ and the largest employer. The fuckers.
Back to supermarkets, because they are still on the black they are not eligible for that subsidy scheme. So they aren't supporting their employees that can't work because of health concerns. Workers are being shafted every which way. Bring on the revolution!
If they think you're crude, go technical; if they think you're technical, go crude. I'm a very technical boy.
Here there isn't many people wearing masks. There isn't enough them to go around. Who i see wearing them is the people working with public contact.
The cautious good news is that for 3 days in a row the rise of daily cases is lower and the curve seems to be softening. They are crediting the lockdown. But they are mentioning too that we are not testing enough. The total of cases is 9886 with 1200 being health care providers, 246 death, of which a bit over 100 were more than 80 years old. This municipality has 100, and the neighbouring Cascais 170. That may be because their beaches are a lot more popular than ours.
On the good news side our pastelaria is reopenning in take away mode. Like others people line up outside and take their pastries, bread, etc to eat at home or wherever.
Because we both work in tourism, my wife and I are both off work, her on full pay, me on the govt 2500 nicker a month. Not allowed to work, even if I want to.
Both of our employers have started redundancy procedures, so it's a bit scary. I suspect I will have drunk myself into a stupor before too long.
Because fucking marketing cunts would never call a spade anything other than a Deluxe Easi-Shift Earth Movement Solution.
Unless you have good, and I mean really good, PPE then you'll likely just have a surgical mask at best.
And those are no protection whatsoever. If, when you breathe in, you pull air through the mask then yes they might slow down any virus particles, but you don't. You breathe your air in from the sides where the mask leaves gaps with your face. There is almost zero protection with any kind of face mask unless it's filtered and has an airtight seal around your face.
So someone walking into a supermarket will infect pretty much the same amount of people regardless of whether or not those people are wearing masks.
But if that infected person is wearing a mask then it will prevent others from catching the virus - the mask will catch ejected virus particles on the inside surface.
Only infectious people should be wearing masks, anyone else is just making themselves feel safer (no bad thing, mind, but not exactly effective).
"Oh dear lord, I slightly soiled myself. Oxfam won’t be pleased."
No one knows if they are infectious though. If they do then they shouldn't be in public...
People have changed their behaviour as if they aren't sick and trying and not get sick. When everyone should be changing their behaviour as if they are carriers and trying not to transmit it to others. Everyone doing that would more effective and slowing transmission. Everyone should be wearing PPE when out in public.
If they think you're crude, go technical; if they think you're technical, go crude. I'm a very technical boy.
The first time I went shopping during all this, I had the lower part of my face covered with the top of a polo neck jumper. The last time, I wore a scarf like a bandana. That, combined with my gloves, boots, hat and Fireflyish coat over a denim waistcoat, might explain why the teller was acting a little odd toward me in the bank.
rowan wrote:edit: Also, I had text from my mobile provider, saying "please only call us if it is urgent as we have fewer care advisers due to COVID"
WTF? How can a mobile company not be able to supply their "care advisers" with mobiles & work from home??
Their "care advisers" might usually work in crowded Indian call centres.
Cloudane wrote:I do worry about the opportunity this gives governments to exert proper 1984 levels of control over people. Tracking everyone's movements by mobile phone and such (more officially than they were already doing) and sending the thugs round if you stay outside for more than your allotted 60 minutes can somehow sound like a great idea when it's to stop a virus...
But then if you were to argue that we should all be free to infect each other and damn the consequences because FREEDOM I'd say you were a reckless idiot.
Very tricky times - a test of democracy will be if once it's all over governments rein their own powers back in again for fear of getting voted out for a more libertarian party.
I do not doubt many governments' awareness of the tale that the Chinese character for 'crisis' also means 'opportunity'. I also remember, however, that IngSoc's Big Brother was more of a leftist thing. Fortunately, over here, the new powers are supposed to be regularly reviewed.
KlaxonCow wrote:Anyway, don't worry. This is the UK. People might be judging you from a distance, but they'll be too polite to say anything.
I was somewhat angered at a young man insisting on staying only about a yard or less behind me in a queue. I pointedly recoiled from him and tutted.
Barney wrote:Unless you have good, and I mean really good, PPE then you'll likely just have a surgical mask at best.
And those are no protection whatsoever. If, when you breathe in, you pull air through the mask then yes they might slow down any virus particles, but you don't. You breathe your air in from the sides where the mask leaves gaps with your face. There is almost zero protection with any kind of face mask unless it's filtered and has an airtight seal around your face.
…But if that infected person is wearing a mask then it will prevent others from catching the virus - the mask will catch ejected virus particles on the inside surface.
Only infectious people should be wearing masks, anyone else is just making themselves feel safer (no bad thing, mind, but not exactly effective).
For once, I agree with Lsk. I cover my lower face mostly to protect other people. I have no idea if I am or will be infected.
Emoticon and contraction free since... quite a while ago.
now "sounds OK" EXCEPT THAT PROTECTIVE MASKS ARE NOWHERE TO BE FOUND and/or still sold somewhere "at totally absurd prices" ( even like 100 eur for 2 masks or such ) so I hear ...
They say that "in alternative" if you don't have a mask you can use a piece of cloth or a scarf ...
Not to mention that even latex gloves they tell me ( from Italy ) are scarce and quite expensive now .. someone is getting well rich with all this .. police ( Carabinieri ) keeps arresting/finding people selling FAKE disinfectants and all sort of various scams - some of which have 'naturally increased' - there are people really just "trying to make a fortune on disaster situations".
But yeah in Friuli at least now if you want to go out in a food shop you MUST wear gloves/masks.
Oh my friend living in Trieste tells me, at where she lives in that particular part of Trieste that is quite populated is IMPOSSIBLE to get out without crossing at least twice two Carabinieri cars, they are there all day
Barney wrote:Unless you have good, and I mean really good, PPE then you'll likely just have a surgical mask at best.
And those are no protection whatsoever. If, when you breathe in, you pull air through the mask then yes they might slow down any virus particles, but you don't. You breathe your air in from the sides where the mask leaves gaps with your face. There is almost zero protection with any kind of face mask unless it's filtered and has an airtight seal around your face.
So someone walking into a supermarket will infect pretty much the same amount of people regardless of whether or not those people are wearing masks.
But if that infected person is wearing a mask then it will prevent others from catching the virus - the mask will catch ejected virus particles on the inside surface.
Only infectious people should be wearing masks, anyone else is just making themselves feel safer (no bad thing, mind, but not exactly effective).
I am no nurse/doctor but logic would tell "if it's really transmitted via droplets" as they said, I suppose even a not super sophisticated mask should give at least some level of protection, if it's really "so easy airborne" then we are totally fucked, they only a hazmat suit should protect ?
You may then have all your mask but what about your clothes you wear ? You hair ? Everything else that was in contact with the air ?
gilesgoat wrote:I am no nurse/doctor but logic would tell "if it's really transmitted via droplets" as they said, I suppose even a not super sophisticated mask should give at least some level of protection, if it's really "so easy airborne" then we are totally fucked, they only a hazmat suit should protect ?
You may then have all your mask but what about your clothes you wear ? You hair ? Everything else that was in contact with the air ?
It's no point then ?
I think the droplets fall to the ground quite quickly, although finer ones might stay in the air long enough to travel more than a meter. The very finest could possibly stay in the air for quite a while but all of the virus in those airborne droplets should be dead within a couple of hours anyway. However, there might be a danger of infection from fine spittle emitted when people speak too close to other faces, or from further away if they cough or sneeze. Having one's mouth covered with almost anything should reduce the risk of hitting others with one's spittle.
There so far appears to be no evidence that anyone has contracted the disease from touching an object, although that remains a theoretical possibility. See: The Beeb – "You don’t need to sanitize food packaging". The most important thing is to wash one's hands properly after returning home and before touching one's face.
Although the virus can apparently remain viable on cardboard for a day and on hard non-copper surfaces for three days, the amount of viable virus does drop rapidly within that time.
The Beeb wrote:On clothing and other surfaces harder to disinfect, it is not yet clear how long the virus can survive. The absorbent natural fibres in cardboard, however, may cause the virus to dry up more quickly than on plastic and metal, suggests Vincent Munster, head of the virus ecology section at Rocky Mountain Laboratories and one of those who led the NIH study.
“We speculate due to the porous material, it desiccates rapidly and might be stuck to the fibres,” he says. Changes in temperature and humidity may also affect how long it can survive, and so may explain why it was less stable in suspended droplets in the air, as they are more exposed. “[We’re] currently running follow-up experiments to investigate the effect of temperature and humidity in more detail.”
The ability of the virus to linger for so long only underlines the importance of hand hygiene and cleaning of surfaces, according to Munster.
Emoticon and contraction free since... quite a while ago.
... so recently "A lot of places" now do order/payments "via phone" .. which means you order, then they ask you for your CC number, security code and expiry date to process the payment.
.. now WHAT would prevent at this point anyone with those data in their hands to make purchases all over the places if someone they'd get to know my name/address ?
If someone steals your credit card details you can report any fraudulent activity and get reimbursed. Sometimes they will pick up on unusual spending and contact you.
If they think you're crude, go technical; if they think you're technical, go crude. I'm a very technical boy.
... so recently "A lot of places" now do order/payments "via phone" .. which means you order, then they ask you for your CC number, security code and expiry date to process the payment.
.. now WHAT would prevent at this point anyone with those data in their hands to make purchases all over the places if someone they'd get to know my name/address ?
They could place orders all over the places ?
Yes, but it would have to be delivered to your address. Or, at least, that's how it's supposed to work.
Here's a bunch of simulations run to determine what measures work and how effectively they work in an epidemic:
The big take-away is what the WHO have been recommending all along, namely "testing, testing, testing".
Or, if you like, doing what South Korea did, as they followed "test, trace and isolate" as their primary strategy - and, actually, compared to many countries, did not need to implement as much draconian restrictions on everyone either - and this really is the most effective route. Both in simulation and reality, that's proved.
Increased hygiene and social distancing do very much "flattened the curve" - though flattening the curve also tends to mean that it rumbles on, at a dull roar, for a longer amount of time - but testing and isolation is what cuts the curve right off in shortest order.
So, simply, I ask, where the fuck are these 3.5 million antibody tests we were promised were "within days" of being rolled out nearly two weeks ago?
Because, at a scale of millions, we can test the entire NHS and everyone that's safe to go back to the frontline can do so, for the benefit of everyone else. As the tests are quick - taking about 15 minutes for results - then we can test at a much more rapid pace and isolate those who need isolating, before they infect anyone else. People can safely break social distancing and return to work, if they've got the antibodies, so the economy can begin to be maintained and recover - and the insane bill of paying 80% of everyone's wages and 80% of all profits and so forth, can be shortened. This is demonstrably - in theory and in practice, as South Korea has one of the best curves on the planet for doing exactly this - is the fastest and best route out of this shit.
Testing, testing, testing. We need fucking testing. Every lab that can test - both public and private - should be brought into operation on this, to ramp up the testing to its maximum. Testing, testing, testing. If the government's business is wrapped up in worrying how to pay all that universal credit and 80% of everyone's wages and so forth - fuck that, because if you go hell for leather on "testing, testing, testing" - and testing some more - then this ends faster and folks can come out of being "furloughed" and losing their jobs earlier, so you're not having to pay all that out in the first place. Testing, testing, testing. Testing, testing, testing.
We need to "Shawshank" this as priority number one in government. Keep asking them about "testing, testing, testing" without pause nor let up, until they fucking do it, even if only to shut us the hell up about it. If any of those antibody tests have passed, then roll them out now - you can continue testing the other ones in the meantime. Tests need to be landing on NHS desks and people's door mats right now in massive numbers. Then we can begin to get this one licked. The other stuff is good, but it'll be a long drawn out and massively expensive process.
And, if I ruled the world, then I'd make it a crime, punishable by being shot in the face, for anyone to be still suggesting "herd immunity" right now, for fuck's sake.
"Words ought to be a little wild - for they are assaults of thought on the unthinking."
- John Maynard Keynes
so I hear ...
