The Sony PS3 thread (apparently *still* obnoxious!)

[Dio]

In the end it all boils down to what kind of controls you use

Yep, I'd entirely agree with that. It's all about the total user experience aspect; PC games are still utterly horrible in that respect because of installers, patches, drivers, video cards etc. and even more so if they aren't keyboard/mouse controlled, and almost any joypad game on the PC feels a mess unless it's just got one or two buttons.

But actually play GridWars and it's graphically similar console counterpart and tell me that game fits worse on a PC than on a console. Clearly rubbish.

[Mark]

Which is exactly whythe wiimote dosnt have to be taught or learnt.
A well designed Wii game will be instinctive.

Disagree. For some games, yep, it'll be easier.

But the sheer number of games I've seen that need in-game icons to tell you what hoops you have to jump through with that controller to perform actions that on another machine would be a simple button press suggest the opposite for the most part.

I've been playing videogames for nearly 30 years and yet from what I've read I'd struggle to get through a Metroid door without some fairly specific instructions. On any other machine I'd just jab the most likely buttons on the pad until it opened.

Where a lot of the industry has been heading for much simpler controls, with more context-sensitive controls mapped to a single button press, I think we're going to be seeing an awful lot of very specific actions used in every different game that comes out, and you're going to need to be told how to do each and every one of them.

[Bubba]

Go and give a non-gamer a Xbox360 pad and let them try to work it out.
Its fucking impossible for anyone to get a grasp on modern pads quickly.

The D pad? The Dpad is the least of the problems. Its all about the buttons!

I still find this attitude absolutely comical. Have you ever tried handing a pad to someone and letting them play? They instantly ask you what the controls are, even if they've never played a video game before in their life. Once you give them a list of "this button does this command" then they pick it up virtually instantly. Things like A to continue B to go back are *printed on the screen*!

With a gesture based system, your gestures relate to actions that take place within the game world. With a button based system, button presses relate to actions that take place within the game world. They are both the same! One may be more intuitive than another, but they are fundmentally the same.

However, the Wii system *looks* more fun than slouching on a sofa. I'd strongly argue that the gestures mean bugger all to it's ability to attract new players - it's all about sparking interest. People who see something and think it looks interesting will give it a go - as long as the games and they way they use the controls spark that initial interest then both systems will be sorted.

Cheers

Bubba

[Bubba]

Where a lot of the industry has been heading for much simpler controls, with more context-sensitive controls mapped to a single button press, I think we're going to be seeing an awful lot of very specific actions used in every different game that comes out, and you're going to need to be told how to do each and every one of them.

Like I just said, we need to learn to map real world actions to game actions, we learn by mimicing and expanding upon the action of others - either being told by "helpers" such as NPCs or real people or by reading "Press A to open door" on the screen. Assuming consistent controls have been used, it is farely safe to assume A will open doors from then on in. Or a game might introduce a context sensitive feature where you look up and see that A opens door, X kicks door in e.t.c.

It doesn't take a genius to look down at the pad and realise there's an A or X on it.

How would you differentiate Opening a door with the Wiimote compared to kicking it in? Or walking through a door rather than rolling or running through a door?

It all comes down to associating actions with responses. And in a good game should take no more than 5 minutes to master

Cheers

Bubba

[grue]

I still find this attitude absolutely comical. Have you ever tried handing a pad to someone and letting them play? They instantly ask you what the controls are, even if they've never played a video game before in their life. Once you give them a list of "this button does this command" then they pick it up virtually instantly. Things like A to continue B to go back are *printed on the screen*!

With a gesture based system, your gestures relate to actions that take place within the game world. With a button based system, button presses relate to actions that take place within the game world. They are both the same! One may be more intuitive than another, but they are fundmentally the same.

I find that most "uninitiated" people have trouble coordinating their movement of the analog stick with what happens on screen. When they also have to press button at the same time they get tottaly lost.

So I really think that telling them to use the wiimote like they would a sword/racket/bat/penis will be infinitely easier for them.

[PumaG]

Consoles and PC's are closing the gap for every generation that passes. These days the Wii is the only console that offers something truly unique and, IMO, interesting.

I'd disagree with that, given that the PC can offer the same experience with suitable controls. Videogames consoles have always been computers - they are now even more similar due to the additional functions that they offer.

Hehe, but the PC also stepped towards the console when they introduced custom graphics, sounds cards and joystick ports.

[Mark]

So I really think that telling them to use the wiimote like they would a sword/racket/bat/penis will be infinitely easier for them.

To some extent, yes. Give someone a remote and tell them it's a sword and they'll wave it about and get moves out of it - and that will get people involved much more easily. Whether they'll be in control to any great extent is debatable - due to most games being gesture based rather than replicating actions exactly. (But that's not necessarily important - I got my folks playing Tekken 3 against each other a few years ago - they mashed random buttons, hadn't a clue what did what, and loved every minute of it ).

But beyond the simplest games you're still going to need to tell them what to do to for a lot of things, and far from being easier, I'm guessing it will actually complicate matters.

As an example, I haven't a clue how I'd block while swordfighting in Red Steel. Is it a remote gesture, a nunchuck move, a button press, or a combo of some or all of them? Without being told I have an awful lot of possible options to try, and none of them seem particularly intuitive to me. Give me a swordfighting game on any other console and I reckon I'd find how to block quicker than I would on Red Steel.

[fog]

I still find this attitude absolutely comical. Have you ever tried handing a pad to someone and letting them play? They instantly ask you what the controls are, even if they've never played a video game before in their life. Once you give them a list of "this button does this command" then they pick it up virtually instantly. Things like A to continue B to go back are *printed on the screen*!

With a gesture based system, your gestures relate to actions that take place within the game world. With a button based system, button presses relate to actions that take place within the game world. They are both the same! One may be more intuitive than another, but they are fundmentally the same.

I find that most "uninitiated" people have trouble coordinating their movement of the analog stick with what happens on screen. When they also have to press button at the same time they get tottaly lost.

So I really think that telling them to use the wiimote like they would a sword/racket/bat/penis will be infinitely easier for them.

That's not comparing like with like though. If you think people struggle using the analogue stick and pressing a button then how is using the analogue stick and performing a specific gesture with the Wiimote easier?

[Yak]

I still find this attitude absolutely comical. Have you ever tried handing a pad to someone and letting them play? They instantly ask you what the controls are, even if they've never played a video game before in their life. Once you give them a list of "this button does this command" then they pick it up virtually instantly. Things like A to continue B to go back are *printed on the screen*!

With a gesture based system, your gestures relate to actions that take place within the game world. With a button based system, button presses relate to actions that take place within the game world. They are both the same! One may be more intuitive than another, but they are fundmentally the same.

I find that most "uninitiated" people have trouble coordinating their movement of the analog stick with what happens on screen. When they also have to press button at the same time they get tottaly lost.

So I really think that telling them to use the wiimote like they would a sword/racket/bat/penis will be infinitely easier for them.

That's not comparing like with like though. If you think people struggle using the analogue stick and pressing a button then how is using the analogue stick and performing a specific gesture with the Wiimote easier?

It requires less abstraction and as such would probably be easier to remember. "Press X to use sword" is fine, but if you siddenly find yourself in battle there might be a few moments of "oh, shit, press what was it?" and button mashing might ensue until the right button was found/remembered. Telling someone to "make a sword motion" already has swordiness implicit in it somehow, so would be easier to recall come swording time.

That's my theory anyway. I'll see if it applies in practical terms when I get a decent go on Zelda .

[grue]

That's not comparing like with like though. If you think people struggle using the analogue stick and pressing a button then how is using the analogue stick and performing a specific gesture with the Wiimote easier?

I was thinking about just the Wiimote. I don't think those people will be interested to play very complicated games, at least in the beginning.

[Marius]

Consoles and PC's are closing the gap for every generation that passes. These days the Wii is the only console that offers something truly unique and, IMO, interesting.

I'd disagree with that, given that the PC can offer the same experience with suitable controls. Videogames consoles have always been computers - they are now even more similar due to the additional functions that they offer.

Cheers

Bubba

It's only recently I feel you can get the same experience on either console or PC...at least without too much of a hassle. So if you look at the history of gaming, I believe my point is pretty valid, at least up until the xbox and ps2-generation.

[Roobarb]

That's not comparing like with like though. If you think people struggle using the analogue stick and pressing a button then how is using the analogue stick and performing a specific gesture with the Wiimote easier?

I was thinking about just the Wiimote. I don't think those people will be interested to play very complicated games, at least in the beginning.

Exactly. First and foremost the reason for the Wiimote being what it is is to appeal to non gamers, not zelda or metroid fans. If Nintendo can pull in the same kind of audience that went out and bought Animal Crossing:WW, Nintendogs and Brain Age then the Wii will do very well. As a gamer i'm also excited about the Wiimote, as it'll provide a whole new avenue for game ideas.

[phattslagg]

I still find this attitude absolutely comical. Have you ever tried handing a pad to someone and letting them play? They instantly ask you what the controls are, even if they've never played a video game before in their life. Once you give them a list of "this button does this command" then they pick it up virtually instantly. Things like A to continue B to go back are *printed on the screen*!

With a gesture based system, your gestures relate to actions that take place within the game world. With a button based system, button presses relate to actions that take place within the game world. They are both the same! One may be more intuitive than another, but they are fundmentally the same.

I find that most "uninitiated" people have trouble coordinating their movement of the analog stick with what happens on screen. When they also have to press button at the same time they get tottaly lost.

So I really think that telling them to use the wiimote like they would a sword/racket/bat/penis will be infinitely easier for them.

That's not comparing like with like though. If you think people struggle using the analogue stick and pressing a button then how is using the analogue stick and performing a specific gesture with the Wiimote easier?

It requires less abstraction and as such would probably be easier to remember. "Press X to use sword" is fine, but if you siddenly find yourself in battle there might be a few moments of "oh, shit, press what was it?" and button mashing might ensue until the right button was found/remembered. Telling someone to "make a sword motion" already has swordiness implicit in it somehow, so would be easier to recall come swording time.

That's my theory anyway. I'll see if it applies in practical terms when I get a decent go on Zelda .

Even if it turns out not to be significantly easier, the point is that non-gamers will think it will be, since the control concept will make more immediate sense to them. Many are put off ever even trying, simply because they assume they won't get the hang of the controls.

[Mele]

Gears of war has made fantastic use of minimal controls , A button seems to do an amazing amount of actions.
Its quite refreshing to play in that respect.

[Hajile]

Now, why are you getting so worked up about this? It's a personal perspective on gaming, with no malice or ill will behind it, not a challenge to a 'your opinions suck' competition.

I didn't say your opinions sucked, but you're of course aware of that already.

Yes, me stating that you were attempting to say that my opinions suck because it's based on point of view is a declaration of agreement. This is sarcasm, in case you feel like trying the same thing again. I agree with you because I am highlighting things you've been getting at that I don't agree with. And you think I'm being illogical, spanky.

Hypothetically, from my perspective, your opinions are illogical and make no sense, because the fact that you can't see the difference that I do is based entirely on your opinion that it's not there, so I can discount it as a similarly sucky opinion.

See how circular arguements like this go? My opinion sucks because it's not yours, and your opinion sucks because it's not mine. It's a childish and kind of a lazy way of getting your point across, hence my advice to grow up.

Anyway, we've moved onto pads now. Yup, they're pretty much the al rounder for game performance. Every pad has a standard action button and a standard cancel button, and on most pads, they're quite similarly located. Importance of buttons is generally highlighted on pads through size, shape or location, and it's very easy to see at a glance which will be your main action buttons and which will be your peripheral ones. X on a PS pad as the main action button or the big one on the cube, for example. Similarly, the diddy black and white buttons on an xbox pad are quite obviously not your main buttons due to their size, colour and location. It takes all of a few seconds for my mum to work out, and if a technophobe like her can manage it in seconds, anyone can. And I don't see how 'move arm holding remote left to move left' is any more intuitive than 'move analogue stick left to move left.'