The Sony PS3 thread (apparently *still* obnoxious!)

[Anders]

Hajile, you seem intent on turning this into a flamey thing, but I see no point in that, so I'll back out.

[Terrypantsman]

Um just walked into the room here. Small question:

whats to stop sony or microsoft constructing a wii type montion controler for their consoles if that mode of control takes off?

I mean 360 got its camera like eye toy. Guitar hero controller comming to 360 as well as PS2.

Shooters people like mouse and keyboard but some like xbox trigger and rumble. Options are out there if you own both platforms.

light guns have been made for all platforms so whats to stop a range of controlers for all platforms to suit personnel needs not to mention DDA.

Hell I'm all for weopon of choice

[Darkflame]

Nothing is.

But I ask you this:

How many lightgun games are there?


When something isnt standard with the system, its not very well supported.
I mean, look at the number of 4 player games on the PS2....hardly any compared to systems with 4 controll ports built in. Dispite the fact a multitap is cheap.

[benedictw]

Nothing at all. Sony already have some motion sensing in the SIXAXIS and MS has had some experience with motion sensing controllers with the 'SideWinder Freestyle Pro' that was released for the PC back in 1998.

Its possible that Nintendo have a patent on the exact system used in the Wiimote ; but theres nothing stopping MS (say) producing a accelerometer-and-LED controller and taking the LED positions off of the 360 Vision Camera.

But as DarkFlames pointed out - unless the saturation point is high enough developers won't develop for it. 'Course you could always bundle a new controller with Halo3 and achieve near 100% penetration...

[Darkflame]

Go and give a non-gamer a Xbox360 pad and let them try to work it out.
Its fucking impossible for anyone to get a grasp on modern pads quickly.

The D pad? The Dpad is the least of the problems. Its all about the buttons!

I still find this attitude absolutely comical. Have you ever tried handing a pad to someone and letting them play? They instantly ask you what the controls are, even if they've never played a video game before in their life. Once you give them a list of "this button does this command" then they pick it up virtually instantly. Things like A to continue B to go back are *printed on the screen*!

Yes, they do.
And they then spend half the game looking at the buttons on the controller (and by the time they have learnt a button off by heart, they are bored with the game)

Sorry, I have tried to get shitloads of non-gamers interested in games, and the controller is always big turn-off.
Super Monkey Ball, however, is a great example that everyone can play no problems....analogue sticks are certainly not the issues.

It is the buttons, the stupid, utterly stupid number of buttons we have on pads today.
A big action button is fine, Combos and specific-action mapping is not.
And thats needed for pretty much all games.

Sorry, but the idea that the Wiimote isnt more simple is laughable to the point I cant believe people are trying to defend that viewpoint.

The wiimote corrisponds closer to real life actions.
For that reason alone its more simple. Sure, it cant corrispond for all actions...but its button-pressing ability isnt harmed is it ?

Heck, the very fact the wiimote has less buttons makes it more simple too, just as NES pad would be more simple then an Xbox one.

When you have to use buttons on the wiimote, its not worse-off because of its other abilitys. (in fact, most people find the two-part split of the pad and nunchuck more relaxing to hold)

How do you do different moves in a tennis game without the wiimote eh?
Button combos.

How do you do it with the wiimote?
You make the action you would in real life.

Infintely more simple.
That goes for just about any sport game. (tennis, golf, pool, baseball, ect).
Football is more tricky, granted, but its certainly not more complex because of the wiimote.

As for the difference between opening a door and kicking it down.

To open:
Twist the unchuck as if it was a handel. (See: Metroid )

To kick:
Jerk it forward fast.

Piece of piss.
And certainly no harder then having "A to open" and "X to kick" or such.
(dont know what game requires this choice, but hay).

Every pad has a standard action button and a standard cancel button, and on most pads, they're quite similarly located. Importance of buttons is generally highlighted on pads through size, shape or location

*cough*Playstation pad*cough*

As an example, I haven't a clue how I'd block while swordfighting in Red Steel. Is it a remote gesture, a nunchuck move, a button press, or a combo of some or all of them? Without being told I have an awful lot of possible options to try, and none of them seem particularly intuitive to me. Give me a swordfighting game on any other console and I reckon I'd find how to block quicker than I would on Red Steel.

But surely you would be told?
Sounds more like a design problems with Red Steel, imo.

Is it not a double-standard to say that Wiimote games cant have any on-screen explanations, and yet we expect it for purely button based games?

The wiimote cant map all actions logicaly, but the point is it can do more things mapped logicaly then a normal pad could.

eg.
To jab your sword, you jab forward.
You dont hold down X while pressing forward with a stick.
To slash verticaly, you slash verticaly.
You dont hold down Y while pressing up/down with a stick.

I dont see how those actions could be mapped better on a normal pad.

And I dont see the harm if they had block just mapped to a button. Maybe that is the best way of doing a block.
Dosnt take away from its simplicity elsewhere.

[Dio]

Wholehearted agreement here. Anyone picking up a game for the first time will manage at best 2 buttons. Only once they've got used to that can they start thinking about using more.

[Terrypantsman]

How many lightgun games are there?

fair point. Wish there were more. I've always wondered why no body has really tried to marry movement control with a lghtgun. Perhaps wii has some good answers to this.

But as DarkFlames pointed out - unless the saturation point is high enough developers won't develop for it. 'Course you could always bundle a new controller with Halo3 and achieve near 100% penetration...

Like a fully functional range of plastic weopons with recoil and reload montion ,cool bring it on

I'd like the collectors addition please with full armory mode please. Looks at Fookin HUGE box.

[Mark]

As an example, I haven't a clue how I'd block while swordfighting in Red Steel. Is it a remote gesture, a nunchuck move, a button press, or a combo of some or all of them? Without being told I have an awful lot of possible options to try, and none of them seem particularly intuitive to me. Give me a swordfighting game on any other console and I reckon I'd find how to block quicker than I would on Red Steel.

But surely you would be told?

And that was my point exactly. I was responding to your comment that you wouldn't have to be taught how to use it. But you will - you'll have to be taught every unique action that is used by these games - and they're using an awful lot of them - many of which aren't particularly intuitive. I acknowledged that swinging a sword is intuitive, but if it's anything beyond the simple "wave the thing you're holding" then it needs explanation.

For the block example, in Soul Calibur say, I'd jab a few buttons until I found a block move. With the Wii controls I have any number of things to try, and there's a fair possibility I wouldn't find it.

My point is only that for a lot of games I will NEED teaching or to actually read the manual, whereas for most pad-based games I can generally skip the tutorial, not read the manual, and still work most things out myself.

(Edit: clarified a silly sentence (hopefully))

[Dio]

Wish there were more.

The problem with lightgun games is that there is only one lightgun game and it gets old really quite fast.

[Darkflame]

fair point. Wish there were more. I've always wondered why no body has really tried to marry movement control with a lghtgun. Perhaps wii has some good answers to this.

Yes, its a pitty.

I think the wii could be good for lightgun style games, but so far the shooters look like an unhappy medium. Your not really get 1:1 screen corrispondance, and you dont have rapid movement controll either.

DuckHunt's demo showed its accurate enough, we just need some developer to make a nice hardcore game for lightgun fans.

Also, when the Wiimote was first announced, I was hopeing it would have a liner-moter for the feedback to simulate recoil. Pitty it dosnt

As an example, I haven't a clue how I'd block while swordfighting in Red Steel. Is it a remote gesture, a nunchuck move, a button press, or a combo of some or all of them? Without being told I have an awful lot of possible options to try, and none of them seem particularly intuitive to me. Give me a swordfighting game on any other console and I reckon I'd find how to block quicker than I would on Red Steel.

But surely you would be told?

And that was my point exactly. I was responding to your comment that you wouldn't have to be taught how to use it.

My point was you would have to be taught a lot less.
Not nothing at all.

I acknowledged that swinging a sword is intuitive, but if it's anything beyond the simple "wave the thing you're holding" then it needs explanation

But the thing is, the majority of games are about "waving the thing your holding"...wether its a sporting device, a sword, or a gun or stearing wheel.
Platform games are a notible exception, analogue stick and A should cover everything for them. (Im more excited by the spherical gravity potential in Mario Galaxy)

I always was curious to see what it would be like to controll a charecter as if on the end of a string..kinda like a ragdoll wiimote game. (but that would be something completely different).

My point is only that for a lot of games I will NEED teaching or to actually read the manual, whereas for most pad-based games I can generally skip the tutorial, not read the manual, and still work most things out myself.

I really dont think youd find that is the case.

Sure, a particularly poorly designed Wii game might map a really common action to a hard to find obscure gesture.
But that would be akin to a button-based game requireing you to press a few buttons at the same time to do an action.

As I said, maybe blocking is better with a button. Id say if blocking is hard to figure out, then its been badly designed rather then then it being because "the pads harder to use".

[Rod_S]

Wish there were more.

The problem with lightgun games is that there is only one lightgun game and it gets old really quite fast.

That, and they're knackering after you've played for an hour. Oh...

[disciple]

Wholehearted agreement here. Anyone picking up a game for the first time will manage at best 2 buttons. Only once they've got used to that can they start thinking about using more.

Have to agree, the chemistry classes in Bully illustrate this.



Not having had a PS2 for long I have difficulty trying to press circle, square triangle etc in order as randomly displayed since my brain's thinking "which one is cross again".

You can learn it but it's not intuitive.

[Marius]

I once tried to teach a non-gamer friend to play Wipeout. He twisted the controller much like you do in Excite Truck and ended up clinging to the walls most of the time. Even back then I thought just how much simpler it would have been for him to play Wipeout the way you play Exite Truck in the Wii. Almost everybody has driven a car and know about turning a wheel and that the more you turn the sharper the turn.

The Wii controls seems so much simpler to use for a non-gamer, and if given a choice between a pad with ten buttons, two analog sticks and one digital, or a Wiimote/nunchuck where you mostly wave it around(perhaps a tad too simplified, but you know what I mean), I really don't see much competition.

Just imagine how much simpler for instance inventory management in Oblivion would have been with the Wii controller.

[fog]

Wholehearted agreement here. Anyone picking up a game for the first time will manage at best 2 buttons. Only once they've got used to that can they start thinking about using more.

Have to agree, the chemistry classes in Bully illustrate this.



Not having had a PS2 for long I have difficulty trying to press circle, square triangle etc in order as randomly displayed since my brain's thinking "which one is cross again".

You can learn it but it's not intuitive.

Isn't that half the point of that Bully mini-game though? If there was absolutely no thought process involved then it ceases to be a challenge and becomes rather pointless.

Yes that might demonstrate that buttons aren't as intuitive but in this case surely that's being exploited as part of the games design.

[AlbertKatraz]

I once tried to teach a non-gamer friend to play Wipeout..

What you needed was one of these.



The *only* controller for Wipeout.