The Sony PS3 thread (apparently *still* obnoxious!)

[Mark]

As an example, I haven't a clue how I'd block while swordfighting in Red Steel. Is it a remote gesture, a nunchuck move, a button press, or a combo of some or all of them? Without being told I have an awful lot of possible options to try, and none of them seem particularly intuitive to me. Give me a swordfighting game on any other console and I reckon I'd find how to block quicker than I would on Red Steel.

But surely you would be told?

And that was my point exactly. I was responding to your comment that you wouldn't have to be taught how to use it.

My point was you would have to be taught a lot less.
Not nothing at all.

I quoted the statement I was disagreeing with in my first post. It came across as a fanboy statement of absolute truth and so I felt duty bound to pick up on it. I could have picked a worse one tbh.

I haven't got time to address everything that's been said since, but here's a summary of my thoughts:

Simple controller = great for getting non-gamers playing games. I'm absolutely sure it'll work too. (I'm not sure it's the best approach as a business model myself, since there's a big difference between getting my mum to play it, and getting my mum to pay for it, but that's beside the point (and I'm just a game designer with a D in Economics A level, and they're a multinational games corporation, so what do I know? ))

Simple controller = also great fun for playing with family, with mates after the pub etc.

Simple controller = not good if games that don't suit it are shoe-horned on to it. It's not replacing gamepads, it's just an alternative. I don't want to play Ikaruga with it, or Disgaea, or a huge number of others. Not relevant to my argument, but is in context with the way the thread's gone).

Simple controller = actually revolutionary device allowing silly number of options for developers to produce brilliant, inventive, silly and downright bizarre new games. Many, many of these, even the well-designed ones, will require a LOT of explanation - you'll be doing stuff that's never been done before - you absolutely aren't going to be able to guess how to play them.

So, here's the crux - if you really believe the Wii will generally have games that don't need explaining, or even don't need explaining as much, then it seems to me you're saying you believe that developers aren't going to let rip with the most innovative controller to hit the market in ages, and implement all the weird and crazy stuff that they're currently thinking up.

I disagree.

Sure - you'll get simple games to get your mum involved, but if you don't get a lot of games that go far beyond that then it's going to be wasting the machine's potential fairly massively, IMO.

And at the end of that I'd also like to point out that at no point have I ever said that more complex controls, or the need to have them explained, are a bad thing. I'm currently playing Tony Hawk's Project 8 - I like complex controls. Heck, I've been playing both ships in Raiden 3 on one pad recently - the more complex the better at times .

[ChunkyMonkey]

Um just walked into the room here. Small question:

whats to stop sony or microsoft constructing a wii type montion controler for their consoles if that mode of control takes off?

I mean 360 got its camera like eye toy. Guitar hero controller comming to 360 as well as PS2.

Shooters people like mouse and keyboard but some like xbox trigger and rumble. Options are out there if you own both platforms.

light guns have been made for all platforms so whats to stop a range of controlers for all platforms to suit personnel needs not to mention DDA.

Hell I'm all for weopon of choice

Actually, and I've been deliberately avoiding mentioning this on here as it's a way off and I don't want to plug it, but we have been working on something for other consoles which we are are now showing to publishers/developers who seem to like what we are showing them and are wanting to bring these kind of games to other formats with our tech (which is very cheap to make compared to Wiimote).

http://uk.gear.ign.com/articles/740/740679p1.html

Since that article went out we've received hate mail from various Nintendo fanboys...including one who wants us to die in a fire apparently. People do seem to get rather nasty about this (please don't be nasty to me on here )

We have started to see some criticism of the Wiimote recently eg http://slate.com/id/2154157

For what it's worth, my view is their controller is actually rather limited (once you're not pointing at the screen it is just a tilt sensor, like the old 'Airpad' and the SIXAXIS) BUT it's Nintendo, and you just know they'll make some fantastic games for it.

Hate mail to the usual address please.

Good luck but the problem for add ons is always the take up - Nintendo have 100% take up of their Wiimote whereas any peripheral Sony/Microsoft go for will only be partially supported at best...

Thanks - you're quite right - it's all about getting the units out there and making sure there is a load of great software for it. We're planning to make it cheaply enough that we can bundle it with games without adding too much to the cost - or if there were 30 games out there, and the unit was 20-30 quid (base station plus controller plus addon), then it becomes a pretty easy thing to justify you'd want to buy (if the games are good enough).

All good stuff though. It's nice that people are really going for the Wii - when we made our first motion controller prototype back in 2001 people thought we were insane to think that anyone would want to play games with anything other than a joypad. I think the DS and Wii (and Guitar Hero, Singstar etc) have done a lot to change everyone's perception over the last few years. Now we're showing this one to people it's great because everyone 'gets' it immediately

[GeeZa]

I think that one screenshot ends the whole 'the magic stick automatically
makes games more fun' BS forever.

You mean the BS that you've invented in your own mind?

Huh? Wha? 'ey?

Look at it! Just look at it! It's a bleeding mess!

I have to admit, I find it hilarious that 'user error' and 'crappy design' are so often used to mask the shortcomings of the Wii controller. Considering there's apparently so much of this user error and crappy design, that even if it is the most wonderful controller ever imagined, it must be so easy to get it completely wrong that hardly anyone will notice.

No the point is that "automatically makes games more fun" is simply the flip side of the "realistic graphics are boring" cheap-shot. Only I don't recall anyone actually saying the former. In other words they're meaningless and inane statements and the fact that people keep referring to them on this board is tedious beyond belief. For the record, the Wiimote works, I've been playing with the damn thing for nearly four fucking days now. It doesn't mean to say there's not going to be games released where it proves unwieldy and a bad choice. I suppose because I'm finding the Wii fun I must be some kind of idiotic fanboy who doesn't understand what he's doing. Why am I even replying to this?

Anyway, back to PS3 discussion.....

[Roobarb]

So, here's the crux - if you really believe the Wii will generally have games that don't need explaining, or even don't need explaining as much, then it seems to me you're saying you believe that developers aren't going to let rip with the most innovative controller to hit the market in ages, and implement all the weird and crazy stuff that they're currently thinking up.

I disagree.

Sure - you'll get simple games to get your mum involved, but if you don't get a lot of games that go far beyond that then it's going to be wasting the machine's potential fairly massively, IMO.

I don't think this is what Darkflame is saying, and it's certainly not what Nintendo is saying. Already they've said they'll be using a standard controller for Smash Bros on the Wii, and i'm sure there will be others. Similarly, the nunchuck is available when a more complex controller is required.

And at the end of that I'd also like to point out that at no point have I ever said that more complex controls, or the need to have them explained, are a bad thing. I'm currently playing Tony Hawk's Project 8 - I like complex controls. Heck, I've been playing both ships in Raiden 3 on one pad recently - the more complex the better at times .

I don't think you'll find anyone disagreeing on that either. Just because the Wii's primary marketing push is along the accessible lines doesn't mean all games will be simple party/puzzle fare. Same thing has happened on the DS.

Wish there were more.

The problem with lightgun games is that there is only one lightgun game and it gets old really quite fast.

That, and they're knackering after you've played for an hour. Oh...

I presume the "Oh...." is meant to imply "nooooes the Wii is dooooomed!". I don't really see what lightguns have to do with the Wiimote. A lightgun you hold at arm's length and hold very still to sight. I haven't seen a single Wii game yet that needs to be played like that. Certainly Zelda Wii for instance can be played quite happily with elbows by your side, much how you'd hold a normal controller, except you don't have to hold your hands together. Multi-hour long stretches of playing through Zelda Wii have been reported to be perfectly comfortable.

Good luck with the controllers ChunkyMonkey

[disciple]

Simple controller = not good if games that don't suit it are shoe-horned on to it. It's not replacing gamepads, it's just an alternative. I don't want to play Ikaruga with it

I wouldn't want to play Ikaruga with a gamepad.

[disciple]

define troll

[fog]

I presume the "Oh...." is meant to imply "nooooes the Wii is dooooomed!". I don't really see what lightguns have to do with the Wiimote. A lightgun you hold at arm's length and hold very still to sight. I haven't seen a single Wii game yet that needs to be played like that. Certainly Zelda Wii for instance can be played quite happily with elbows by your side, much how you'd hold a normal controller, except you don't have to hold your hands together. Multi-hour long stretches of playing through Zelda Wii have been reported to be perfectly comfortable.

I've commented on the Wiimotes lack of accuracy in the past (ie. gun targets and pointers not appearing exactly where you point the Wiimote) but I think this is one of the advantages of that.

If the Wiimote did act like a lightgun then you would be tempted to hold it out in front of you but as it doesn't then it's probably advantageous to hold it down by your side. That way you aren't confused by the Wiimote visibly pointing at one location and the gunsights etc appearing somewhere else and your arm doesn't get tired.

[Jamesac]

This is too stupid for words, especially seeing as you're arguing Wii control issues in a PS3 thread. Let me explain something that, apparently, you're all not understanding no matter what side of the argument you fall on.

All games need explaining. Every single one. Always and every time. As often as not you need to do it twice, too. On what do I base this statement, you ask? Working retail in a store with Guitar Hero set up for as many months as we could keep it on the system. The first time I had to explain to someone that you've got to do more than just hit the fret buttons, you've actually got to strum, I thought they were being intentionally dense just to aggravate me. Long about the hundredth time or so I figured out that yes, these people just didn't get what to do without a few pointers.

So, if a game as obvious as Guitar Hero needs directions, no force on earth is going to make Wii instinctual. Wii is a ton of fun and very easy to use (anyone who says otherwise is just being argumentative) but it's never going to be instruction-free.

Also- EA doing a piss-poor cash-in conversion!? I've never heard of such a thing, surely it's all the Wii's fault that a game designed around one control method doesn't work on a controller with significantly fewer buttons!

Can we go back to making fun of the PS3 now, please?

James

[Mark]

So, here's the crux - if you really believe the Wii will generally have games that don't need explaining, or even don't need explaining as much, then it seems to me you're saying you believe that developers aren't going to let rip with the most innovative controller to hit the market in ages, and implement all the weird and crazy stuff that they're currently thinking up.

I disagree.

Sure - you'll get simple games to get your mum involved, but if you don't get a lot of games that go far beyond that then it's going to be wasting the machine's potential fairly massively, IMO.

I don't think this is what Darkflame is saying, and it's certainly not what Nintendo is saying.

Oh christ - this just goes to prove that I don't get forums.

Here's the start:

Which is exactly whythe wiimote dosnt have to be taught or learnt.
A well designed Wii game will be instinctive.

That's the only statement I've ever been arguing against (although as mentioned before I could have picked others that I object to more).

IMO, it's not only flawed, it's a massive over-generalisation to prove a single advantage of the Wii purely to win an argument, despite it contradicting other, more significant, advantages of the system. Fanboyism basically - arguing purely to win an argument, despite belittling the thing you're defending.

Later:

My point was you would have to be taught a lot less.
Not nothing at all.

Perhaps I should have left it there. It contradicts what was first said, so is much less a sweeping statement of righteousness in support of the mighty N, and so is much less fanboy in tone.

But this is the proof that I don't get how forums work - I didn't, and so tried to point out how I think that ease of access isn't the Wii's main weapon, but innovation is instead. And that whilst simplicity is great, complex controls aren't to be feared but lauded.

And yet somehow, I'm still wrong.

Edit: And now Jamesac comes in and points out we're in the wrong thread anyway. Bah (again).

[teamonkey]

define troll

Just a reminder - we're in the "PS3 Superiority and general validation of arrogance for Sony" thread.

[Governmentyard]

define troll

Just a reminder - we're in the "PS3 Superiority and general validation of arrogance for Sony" thread.

Yeah but that notion ran out of steam pages ago. The whole planet wants to talk about the competition and rightly so. It's cooler.

[Guru-Meditation]

define troll

Just a reminder - we're in the "PS3 Superiority and general validation of arrogance for Sony" thread.

It's become irrelevant even in it's own thread

[Yak]

Hey, c'mon, let's try and keep a bit of positivity about the ps3 going here.

- It's shiny.
- It's quieter than the xbox 360.
- It'll probably be quite nice when it's finished, hopefully about the time us Euros get to be allowed to buy one.

so let's have a rousing chorus of woo and yay! .

[gilesgoat]

Am I too late to say "I dont' care a strafucking button of all this", we'll
speak with the things in hand and something solid on the table.

Too early to evaluate anything, so far it's all shiny but there's still no meat
enough.

When the meat and the rest will be then we'll see what we are talking about

[Roobarb]

So, if a game as obvious as Guitar Hero needs directions, no force on earth is going to make Wii instinctual.

Eating, sleeping and shagging are instinctual. Don't think we've had tme to evolve to be congenital video games players yet

Oh christ - this just goes to prove that I don't get forums.

Here's the start:

Which is exactly whythe wiimote dosnt have to be taught or learnt.
A well designed Wii game will be instinctive.

That's the only statement I've ever been arguing against (although as mentioned before I could have picked others that I object to more).
...
Later:

My point was you would have to be taught a lot less.
Not nothing at all.

Perhaps I should have left it there. It contradicts what was first said, so is much less a sweeping statement of righteousness in support of the mighty N, and so is much less fanboy in tone.

He was just clarifying what he meant. Nothing wrong in that is there?
Sure any game, video or not, needs a little explanation and practice when you first play it. All Darkflame is saying is that in many games you perform actions that have physical analogues, so if a motion sensitive/pointing controller can capture your real life movements and translate those into the equivalent actions in the game world then it's going to be easier to grasp how to play the game since you've already learnt those actions in real life. Similarly a controller with fewer buttons should be less intimidating for someone to learn to use: games like space invaders relied on being playable with little if any instruction. More buttons allow more complex interaction, at the cost of simplicity. All Wii is doing is making the basic controller reasonably simple and approachable, but allowing the possibility for more complexity with the Nunchuk and classic/GC controllers. Best of all worlds surely?

And yet somehow, I'm still wrong.

I'm pretty sure i agreed with you on many points. All i was doing was clarifying what i believe Darkflame's intending meaning was. If that pisses you off i won't bother next time.