The Sony PS3 thread (apparently *still* obnoxious!)

[Ely]

well edge 's wii supplement wasn't any better, alas

I read that and don't remember it being that bad to be honest, certainly it didn't openly slag off the oppostion.

[seibu]

I suppose one of the reasons I've liked the last two console generations is that Sony's stranglehold in the industry was so absolute it eliminated any and all rivalries.

Wait, hold on. You liked the last generation because it was dominated by an unreliable, underpowered and ugly console with only two joypad ports? And the domination of this machine at the expense of technically superior and cheaper machines appealed to you? It was 'relaxing' not to have to choose?

I have to say I think that's a pretty strange point of view. Personally, I like competition, because it feeds innovation. Surely, anything that stops Sony from steamrollering the competition for a third generation running with their all-conquering brand can only be good for gamers?

[Roobarb]

The little mindgames they played with prices, for example, then their announcement of a price higher than anyone expected, coupled with a cheeky "we never actually said it would be that cheap, we just said it would be cheap". Their similar dirty tricks, telling out and out lies about region locks, then reversing their statements. Whetting the consumers appetite with fraudulent information before reneging on the lot, by which time the public's attention has been grabbed, at least for a short time. Typical arseheaded business techniques, yet Nintendo are seen as the plucky underdog, the upstart against the titans, so they can crack their cheeky Nintendo grin, go 'oops, sorry' and they're not called on it, instantly forgiven. Microsoft or Sony would have been torn to pieces for pulling nonsense like that, and Sony rightfully have been, but Nintendo simply Artful Dodger their way out of it every time. Just because they're charming doesn't mean they're not thieving, lying pieces of shit, and it does occasionally astound me that so many people just haven't noticed that the transparently questionable tactics they've employed this generation are easily the equal of any of Sony's screwups.

More than a few announcements and quotes from Nintendo people have smacked of smug gittishness. Generally, they've fallen under the banner of the old cliche 'it's not what they've said, it's the way they said it.' One that springs to mind was their reaction to Sony's motion sensor announcement, when they stated they were "looking forward to being amused by Sony's little controller." Precisely the kind of remark that would earn you a smack in the mouth if you were just two blokes talking down the pub.

I don't want to turn this into a slanging match, but here's my thoughts on the matters you raise:

1. The forced game bundle and subsequent pricing in Europe and US was dissapointing; as a consumer i'd say it's priced around 10-15% too high. Nintendo have always charged what they felt the market could bear though, so i wouldn't say they're any worse now than they ever have been, and if i was a Nintendo shareholder that's exactly what i'd want them to do. The argument over whether $249 / €249 is 'affordable', as promised by Iwata, is matter of opinion really. In the context of this particular interview i wouldn't say he was particularly misleading:

BIZ: I know that Nintendo has not officially announced a price for the Wii, but a rumor we spotted this week in EGM suggests a $249 price tag. Do you want to comment on that?

SI: [Laughs] As you know, that is speculation and we did not comment on the price point at all. What we've been repeatedly saying is that it's going to be an affordable price point, and when we say affordable, you may want to check our past records of price points, launching price points for any past hardware... I think you'll agree that we always come up with an affordable price point. So when we announce the Wii price point in the near future, I believe you are going to say, "That's an affordable price point."

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=12748
However, their 'no more than' 25,000 yen / $250 / €250 opening gambit was pretty stupid, given that they came in at the top end in each region.

2. The region locking announcement made by Perrin Kaplan was very poor. She also subsequently made another cock-upregarding component cables being available in retail stores from day of launch (they weren't). I'm prepared to believe they were honest mistakes though rather than purposeful deception, as Nintendo had nothing to gain really and quite a lot to lose in terms of face. Perrin Kaplan really needs to do her homework though.

3. As for "looking forward to being amused by Sony's little controller", i think you've got the wrong end of the stick there.

The precise quote, from Engadget's Miyamoto interview was:

So what non-Nintendo-platform games are you most looking forward to playing on either the Xbox 360 or PS3? I assume as a gamer and designer you play all sorts of games.

I actually haven't had a chance to even be out on the show floor so I don't even know what's available to play. Although I do want to see how Sony's little sensor is working. (Laughs)

Here's a couple of other quotes from around that time (E3):

In an interview with Canadian publication the Edmonton Sun, when asked if he thought Sony had copied Nintendo's idea for the Wii's remote controller, Miyamoto replied: "It’s kind of what always seems to happen. But the fact that they looked at what we were doing and decided it was a good path is kind of flattering; it kind of reinforces in our minds that we’re doing the right thing."

"What they’ve done is just take your standard controller and add in this motion-sensing device that’s similar to what we did back on the Game Boy Color many years ago. Maybe if they were to completely copy and go with a remote and a nunchuk and two motion sensors, I might be a little more concerned. But I don’t think they’re anywhere close to that."

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=17161

BIZ: Speaking of Sony, I wanted to know what your reaction was to their media briefing, especially their expensive price and the fact that they now announced motion sensing for the PS3 controller.

SI: As for the latter part of the question, actually we were anticipating that Sony would make that kind of announcement, so I had to make a kind of wry smile at the time. Having said that, however, putting the motion sensing technology into the classic [PS3] controller, which is going to be held with two hands, is pretty much different from the motion sensor being incorporated into the Wii remote or the combination of the Wii remote and the nunchuk controller... There's a huge gap between the two, I can tell you, with that whole experience, so I really don't think that the inclusion of motion sensing into Sony's classic type of controller can affect in one way or the other the advantage that we have with the Wii controller.

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=12748

My take on it is that Miyamoto wasn't being particularly condescending - as far as i can see it's not his style - he was just wanting to reinforce that it's an evolution of Sony's standard controller rather than a wholesale change as per the Wiimote/Nunchuck configuration. I suspect the term 'little' lost something in translation, and his laugh (which i think is where you remember the 'amusing' from) is just typical Miyamoto conversational mannerism: he's a happy chappy

---------

Shame, really, because they never used to be so flagrantly disrespectful, not even when they were the big dogs. Not to their competitors, and certainly not to the public.

Well i wouldn't say any of it's as bad as restrictive licensing in the NES days, or price-fixing, or going back on a deal in a very public fashion.

And if you ask me i'd say they're no worse than some of the stuff Microsoft has come out with, e.g.
. End-of-lifing a console early because it's to expensive to make, and leaving existing owners with few new releases.
. BluRay FUD tactics.
. Mandatory MS tax if you want to play online
. Introducing two tier console pricing, with a crippled lower end unit
. Thinly veiled side-snipes at PS3
. Positioning the Wii as a 'second console', and 'for kids' (neither of which are how Nintendo is wanting to position it).

I dunno though. This generation is seriously looking like it's going to be more trouble than its worth. I've never seen an entire batch of consoles look so unappealing and weak at their kickoff point. The whole Sony Vs Nintendo thing is filling me full of trepidation, too.

I presume you mean on the part of the 'fanboys', rather than the companies themselves? Nintendo the company has mostly kept away from badmouthing the others' consoles, and concentrated in bigging up their own approach to next gen. MS and Sony representatives on the other hand have been at each other like a couple of Jack Russells on multiple occasions.

[Hajile]

I suppose one of the reasons I've liked the last two console generations is that Sony's stranglehold in the industry was so absolute it eliminated any and all rivalries.

Wait, hold on. You liked the last generation because it was dominated by an unreliable, underpowered and ugly console with only two joypad ports? And the domination of this machine at the expense of technically superior and cheaper machines appealed to you? It was 'relaxing' not to have to choose?

I have to say I think that's a pretty strange point of view.

You misunderstand me. That's not even close to what I said, and you're filling in the blanks with your own perspective.
I liked the last generation or two simply because I wasn't being aggravated by rabid slagging matches, both between users and between companies. Nothing else. It wasn't a headache, and I didn't find myself having to immediately go on the defensive when I told someone I was mainly using a particular console. After the Megadrive/SNES wars of the generation before I found it quite refreshing and peaceful, and thought that the industry had matured (or, indeed, evolved) to the point where foaming at the mouth nutcases would no longer alienate and prevent a casual audience becoming involved just because they were afraid of pitching their tent on the wrong side and copping an earful. I don't need any other reason. Mentioning power of the console or the price is missing the point of what I'm getting at, and any other reasons you can bring up would be just an attempt to put your words in my mouth.

I'm all for evolution of the games industry, but I feel that it'll come about through a change in business models and public representation rather than controllers or high definition.

[gravy]

Saw the EDGE thing yesterday and despite not being flagged as such it must be paid for advertorial. Given that EDGE has a small and mostly savvy readership it's odd the decision was taken to big up the PS3 at the expense of the X360 in such a clumsy way. I can't see that pamphlet changing the opinions of 99% of EDGE's readership, the only impact it'll have is to shed themselves of any vestiges of respect still remaining for the magazine. Which is a shame as the rest of it's been pretty good of late.

Anyone @ Future care to comment on this? Assuming you're reading the board and can be arsed to get to page 60 of what started as obsak's PS3 froth-a-thon.

In other news BONG Robbie Bach sticks in the boot for PS3

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=21358

[Duck Turkin]

I suppose one of the reasons I've liked the last two console generations is that Sony's stranglehold in the industry was so absolute it eliminated any and all rivalries.

Wait, hold on. You liked the last generation because it was dominated by an unreliable, underpowered and ugly console with only two joypad ports? And the domination of this machine at the expense of technically superior and cheaper machines appealed to you? It was 'relaxing' not to have to choose?

Ugly? If you think a bright pink cube with a handle on it is pretty, or that a huge black box with a green logo on it is pretty, then it definitely proves that there's no accounting for taste.
Unreliable? There were definitely issues with the first edition PS2 being crappy, but since then they have generally been pretty good (no complaints here).
As for domination over technically superior machines, well to borrow a phrase from the Nintendo fanboys, technology is irrelevant to the quality of games (and in general they're right about this). You might prefer Gamecube or Xbox games, but if you look in terms of overall sales that puts you in a minority.

Personally, I like competition, because it feeds innovation. Surely, anything that stops Sony from steamrollering the competition for a third generation running with their all-conquering brand can only be good for gamers?

I agree that competition is a good thing for this industry.

[gravy]

Blimey! This link indicates that the Linux running on PS3 may allow unhindered access to the machine.

http://ps3mods.blogspot.com/2006/11/ps3 ... -2006.html

Basically the guys is saying he's now able to run games off of the PS3's interrnal HD without a BRD in the drive. He reckons he'll be releasing a boot loader for everyone on Dec 20

Could be bullshit, if it isn't this could get Sony to kill Linux on its console as it exists now pretty quickly.

Going to be interesting

[Duck Turkin]

I suppose one of the reasons I've liked the last two console generations is that Sony's stranglehold in the industry was so absolute it eliminated any and all rivalries.

Wait, hold on. You liked the last generation because it was dominated by an unreliable, underpowered and ugly console with only two joypad ports? And the domination of this machine at the expense of technically superior and cheaper machines appealed to you? It was 'relaxing' not to have to choose?

I have to say I think that's a pretty strange point of view.

You misunderstand me. That's not even close to what I said, and you're filling in the blanks with your own perspective.
I liked the last generation or two simply because I wasn't being aggravated by rabid slagging matches, both between users and between companies. Nothing else. It wasn't a headache, and I didn't find myself having to immediately go on the defensive when I told someone I was mainly using a particular console. After the Megadrive/SNES wars of the generation before I found it quite refreshing and peaceful, and thought that the industry had matured (or, indeed, evolved) to the point where foaming at the mouth nutcases would no longer alienate and prevent a casual audience becoming involved just because they were afraid of pitching their tent on the wrong side and copping an earful. I don't need any other reason. Mentioning power of the console or the price is missing the point of what I'm getting at, and any other reasons you can bring up would be just an attempt to put your words in my mouth.

I agree, but at least in my situation the internet bears almost no resemblance to the real world, something I have to keep repeating to myself (because it's something I do tend to forget).

[Ely]

Blimey! This link indicates that the Linux running on PS3 may allow unhindered access to the machine.

http://ps3mods.blogspot.com/2006/11/ps3 ... -2006.html

Basically the guys is saying he's now able to run games off of the PS3's interrnal HD without a BRD in the drive. He reckons he'll be releasing a boot loader for everyone on Dec 20

Could be bullshit, if it isn't this could get Sony to kill Linux on its console as it exists now pretty quickly.

Going to be interesting

Seems awfully quick for an exploit like that to have been found. Still there are some very clever people out there I guess

[gravy]

Yeah, it -could- turn into the same bios update / patch arms race the PSP has had over the last year of so.

[Bubba]

Blimey! This link indicates that the Linux running on PS3 may allow unhindered access to the machine.

http://ps3mods.blogspot.com/2006/11/ps3 ... -2006.html

Basically the guys is saying he's now able to run games off of the PS3's interrnal HD without a BRD in the drive. He reckons he'll be releasing a boot loader for everyone on Dec 20

Could be bullshit, if it isn't this could get Sony to kill Linux on its console as it exists now pretty quickly.

Going to be interesting

Hmm, this looks pretty suspect. He says external hard drive rather than internal:

And as of this morning ..Ive successfully loaded Ridge Racer 7 and Resistance both running off a Hard Drive ..(albit external) No BR disc in drive.

Which is a little puzzling given that it's already got a perfectly good hard drive in there! But still, it's mighty impressive if true. I just fail to believe that Sony could have such a weak hypervisor when the 360 has proven reasonably resilliant to this kind of hack. I suspect IBM worked on both of them

Cheers

Bubba

[aureole]

How ubiquituous is the central online component of the PS3? Can they do an XBox and boot the modders or not?

[gravy]

Which is a little puzzling given that it's already got a perfectly good hard drive in there! But still, it's mighty impressive if true. I just fail to believe that Sony could have such a weak hypervisor when the 360 has proven reasonably resilliant to this kind of hack. I suspect IBM worked on both of them

I'm not sure about IBM working on the BIOS level stuff. I know people will probably luagh at this bit MS are really good at OS software while Sony just aren't very good at enterprise type software at all.

But yeah, it does smell a bit. Worth keeping track of though until the 20th

[fog]

Blimey! This link indicates that the Linux running on PS3 may allow unhindered access to the machine.

http://ps3mods.blogspot.com/2006/11/ps3 ... -2006.html

Basically the guys is saying he's now able to run games off of the PS3's interrnal HD without a BRD in the drive. He reckons he'll be releasing a boot loader for everyone on Dec 20

Could be bullshit, if it isn't this could get Sony to kill Linux on its console as it exists now pretty quickly.

Going to be interesting

Seems awfully quick for an exploit like that to have been found. Still there are some very clever people out there I guess

There was also a video of a supposed Wii hack to allow you to run copies a couple of days ago but I notice that's now been removed.

If it's anything like the PSP & DS scene then there will be a lot of false claims made before someone really does crack them.

[gravy]

How ubiquituous is the central online component of the PS3? Can they do an XBox and boot the modders or not?

My understanding is it's a bit fractured, so Resistance has just about everything that XBOX Live offers (matching, leaderboards, messaging, buddies) but its not interoperable with other PS3 titles.

That said Sony can bundle put PS3 bios updates with new games which in turn could have a search around any permanent storeage you have for dodgy content and stop you from using it.