Is it just me or are people fucking thick?

Every now and then a Llamasoftie will say something interesting. Honestly! This is where we will keep these topics so that they don't get deleted.
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Snakey
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Post by Snakey »

kalmar wrote:I think "intends to take off" implies that the engines are running
Well, I think the rest of it implies that the "magic treadmill" will keep the plane stationary. But everybody says it doesn't say that. It doesn't say the engines are on, or even work, either ;)

It could "intend" to take off but actually have no fuel on board, for a start. So no, it doesn't imply the engines are running.

But, yeah... matching the speed of the wheels is only possible if the wheels aren't actually moving.

Just saying, like ;)
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Guru-Meditation
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Post by Guru-Meditation »

How about a wind tunnel instead of a treadmill ....
passplay> is anyone else sitting with their balls gently nestled in a bowl of red jello?
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Post by piku »

Guru-Meditation wrote:How about a wind tunnel instead of a treadmill ....
Plane would obviously take off then.
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Post by fred_zen »

How about this reading: the magic treadmill keeps the plane stationary. A plane that is taking off is not stationary (at the very least the vertical component of its velocity is non-null). This would be in violation of the magical-treadmill-law. Ergo the plane doesn't take off.
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Post by piku »

I have changed sides into the "plane does take off" camp after reading the wheelie-bag-on-moving-walkway explanation. I can't imagine what happens to the wheels, but obviously the bag will move because it's attached to my arm dragging it forwards.

Engines / arm - same thing
Wheelie bag / plane - same thing

Now how many plastic bottles of vodka will the passengers consume while waiting for us to decide whether the plane will take off or not? They're getting angry... never seen those airport programmes on TV?
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Post by disciple »

Snakey wrote:But, yeah... matching the speed of the wheels is only possible if the wheels aren't actually moving.

Just saying, like ;)
Read the scenario again, nowhere does it say that the conveyer belt matches the speed of the wheel. This was covered on page 22!!
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M
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Post by M »

Sorry to wade back in here, but some points don't seem to be grasped.
piku wrote:I predict this will continually loop around and around, polarising this forum into one of three groups:...

..."Followers of the holy flying Pixie"
No, no, no, the pixies don't fly, they just shoot the arrows that keep the plane up.

piku wrote:What'd happen if the plane tried to land on this mystic runway, rather than taking off?
Assuming that the plane was airborne over the magic moving treadmill runway thing, it would fall to the ground - as I explained before (page 12 or there-about), the pixies will be swept away from under the plane by the treadmill, so the moment the plane crosses into the airspace above the treadmill it will no longer be receiving its supply of lift-providing arrows under the wings.

Bog wrote:*thinks about it*

It doens't matter anyway. In 10 years, Burt Rutan will design a plane that doesn't need a glorified Travelator and runs on Unicorn giggles.
Steady on there chap, I don't buy into this modern pseudo-science. Unicorn giggles are just sci-fi dreams, they will never replace pixie arrows.

piku wrote:I have changed sides into the "plane does take off" camp after reading the wheelie-bag-on-moving-walkway explanation. I can't imagine what happens to the wheels, but obviously the bag will move because it's attached to my arm dragging it forwards.

Engines / arm - same thing
Wheelie bag / plane - same thing
Don't be a sap - more pseudo-science smoke and mirrors. The analogy is irrelevant because it completely fails to take account of the pixies.

disciple wrote:Read the scenario again...
The original article links to the question presented thus:
Imagine a plane is sitting on a massive conveyor belt, as wide and as long as a runway, and intends to take off...
I don't think planes, as non-thinking machines, can "intend" to do anything, can they? Now I am confused...
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Post by Wibble »

Don't planes take off as a result of the upwards pressure of wind passing the wings, rather than the push of the engine?

Wouldn't the upwards pressure be mostly missing, if the plane is kept stationary?

Am I not just repeating the whole thread? :D
Last edited by Wibble on Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:05 am 0, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Snakey »

disciple wrote:
Snakey wrote:But, yeah... matching the speed of the wheels is only possible if the wheels aren't actually moving.

Just saying, like ;)
Read the scenario again, nowhere does it say that the conveyer belt matches the speed of the wheel. This was covered on page 22!!
The conveyer belt is designed to exactly match the speed of the wheels
That's exactly what it says. Duh!
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Post by disciple »

Snakey wrote:
disciple wrote:
Snakey wrote:But, yeah... matching the speed of the wheels is only possible if the wheels aren't actually moving.

Just saying, like ;)
Read the scenario again, nowhere does it say that the conveyer belt matches the speed of the wheel. This was covered on page 22!!
The conveyer belt is designed to exactly match the speed of the wheels
That's exactly what it says. Duh!
No it doesn't, read it again.
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Post by tufty »

disciple wrote:No it doesn't, read it again.
...because you're assuming something from an ambiguous statement (and one that is utterly irrelevant to the problem, as has been covered, but let's not get back into that).

Let's look at the various definitions of "speed" for the wheels that might be useful to us.

1: Linear speed of the whole wheel assembly relative to the ground
2: Linear speed of the whole wheel assembly relative to the aircraft
3: Linear speed of the contact patch, relative to the ground
4: Linear speed of the contact patch, relative to the aircraft
5: Angular speed of the wheel relative to its axle.

The first is fairly sensible, and we can see that a magical tardmill in this case would operate by moving its carpet at -V where V is the velocity of the aircraft, there's no impossibility here.

The second is very easy. The wheel does not move in a linear fashion relative to the aircraft, so the treadmill is always stationary. Saves on motor controllers, at least.

The third is identical to the second if we assume zero slippage, the rubber in the contact patch is not moving thus the treadmill is stationary. If we allow for slippage (nothing mentions perfect tyres that never skid) this also works, the treadmill will roll very gently backwards and probably reach equilibrium.

The fourth is impossible except at rest in a zero-slippage situation, with skidding allowed it may reach equilibrium.

The fifth is, largely speaking, absurd, and the results depend on the size of the treadmill itself. As we have been told it is the size of a normal" runway , we may reasonably assume that matching angular velocities of the treadmill and the wheel will result in skidding except at rest; thus it's impossible in the 'zero slippage' case except at rest, and would result in almost instant burn-off of the aircraft's tyres in a "slippage allowed" case.

I contend that the only case that actually makes any sense given the problem as stated is the first. But even so, the definition of the magical treadmill is largely irrelevant; the only thing that's going to stop the plane moving forward through the air is that cursed handrail.

[edit]

I might also add that the only thing that actually makes sense is to take the linear speed of the wheels as a whole; nothing guarantees that "the wheels" of the aircraft are the same size, so angular speed would be different resulting in an impossibility for cases 4 and 5 (and probably case 3, when allowing for slippage)

[editedit]

Hah, I pismelled "treadmill" as "tardmill". I think I prefer that.

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Post by Flabio »

The fact this is still going on, and people are getting so worked up about it, amuses me greatly.
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Post by zip accident »

Flabio wrote:

amuses me greatly.
Yeah, it amused me, until I realised some people were just taking the piss.
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Post by M »

tufty wrote:Hah, I pismelled "treadmill" as "tardmill". I think I prefer that.

Simon
This thread is a tardmill and a good one to boot, successfully generating lots of retarded ideas, or maybe lots of us were already 'tards anyway. :wink:

Best thread I've seen in ages. Nice balance of intelligent, thought provoking, humorous and slightly exasperated posts. Keep up the good work! No slacking at the tardmill!
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Post by diablo »

I especially liked the diversion onto eating cheese and mango chutney!
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