The Dr Who thread

[Bog]

Ollie,

A lot of it's in how they fly. The Daleks in "Muppets Take Skaro", sorry "Daleks in Manhattan" were swooshing and swooping around. This wasn't cool. The Dalek shape is not suited to swooshing. Nor is the Dalek attitude.

The way the eponym in "Dalek" flew was, in fact, scary as hell. It didn't swizz around like a Huey in a cheap post-Platoon vietnam movie, it stalked through the air. From it's slide up the stairs to it's glide into the room full of soliders, it moved with that sinister deliberation, owning it's patch of sky. Even the ranks of flying daleks in "Parting of the Ways" or the last ep with Rose had that deliberation.

It's just "Another Ballsed Up Design Choice" in a row of bad ones. If They and Jask (is that right?) had just hovered there and methodically ripped Hoovertown apart (I can think of some brilliant shots to show that, not even very difficult effects-wise), that would have the whole "I'm a Dalek. I'm here. I'm not even going to give credence to anything you can do to me, because I'm unstoppable" effect. Hanging, as The Author wrote, in the air just the way bricks don't.

Shame.

[IronGiant]

If They and Jask (is that right?)

Close, it's Thay and Jast. I think. Well, you did ask.

I do agree with your comments about the swooping, flying Daleks - I believe that you have in fact hit the nail fairly and squarely on the bonce.

[Bog]

I do agree with your comments about the swooping, flying Daleks - I believe that you have in fact hit the nail fairly and squarely on the bonce.

If there's one thing I'm uniformly good at, it's flying things

[IronGiant]

You should try and get a job with RTD's mob of merry folk as 'Dalek flying advisor'.

[arron]

What with mixing up DNA and mind reprogramming[1], lightning and DNA change[2] and sun activity (gamma collector) and lightning bolts[3]..quite frankly the episode fell apart thanks to a failure between chair and word processor, where spectacle wallpapers over fact.

If you're going to write a story on the limits of scientific knowledge..you might as well follow some internal consistency concerning what causes what. Even my nephew could have shot that episode full of holes.

It was a bit of a shame really, because there was a lot they could have done with it. It did have some promise last week. And the Macra episode did have some character depth, which I thought was heading in the right direction. And we're back to running around and shouting next week.

[1] Where wiped clean human become daleks through looking the same as humans? What happened to the blue and white "art deco" models that were rumoured?
[2] The doctor changes people into timelord hybrids though absorbing a lightning strike?
[3] Sun activity causes a predictable lightning storm? How about looking though archives of newspapers to pick that one up? It worked for Back to the Future..

[Darkflame]

I think the time-lordyness doesnt come purely from DNA, hence I wouldn't criticise the Lightening too much. For all we know something about Time Lords makes part of their being conductive.

I agree about internal logic, however.

The way the eponym in "Dalek" flew was, in fact, scary as hell. It didn't swizz around like a Huey in a cheap post-Platoon vietnam movie, it stalked through the air. From it's slide up the stairs to it's glide into the room full of soliders, it moved with that sinister deliberation, owning it's patch of sky. Even the ranks of flying daleks in "Parting of the Ways" or the last ep with Rose had that deliberation.

Absolutely.
Dalek did it perfectly.

And look how many gaurds it killed with one shot.
Compare it too how many these ones failed to kill with dozens of exploding shots...

Another thing about the Daleks - I honestly feel, although it's illogical, that their ability to fly diminishes their scariness. Hovering a bit to go up stairs, fine, but somehow they're scarier when they're just relentlessly trundling about the place at no great speed

The Zombie Effect, yes.

[arron]

I think the time-lordyness doesnt come purely from DNA, hence I wouldn't criticise the Lightening too much. For all we know something about Time Lords makes part of their being conductive.
I agree about internal logic, however.

It is getting to the point of being silly, cranking out improbable story elements and deus ex machina endings like some bad B-Movie or kids saturday morning cartoon. Take the final scene with the Doctor facing down Dalek Caan. If the Doctor had suddenly pointed his finger at the Dalek and a bolt of lightning shot out, Dalek explodes..then how would people have reacted? Would they have even noticed given recent episodes?

RTD goes on Confidential and bangs enthusiastic about "How there's a lot we don't know about the Doctor and this ending just wraps everything up neatly." The fanboys nod their heads and say "Wow, the doctor is like..amazing! Lightning bolts, we haven't seen those before from him..He's like the best Doctor ever!"

Whereas I would have thought "Very bad writing. And trying to play it off as 'of course this is what the doctor would/could do' just shows how bad it was. You spent all this money and effort on something that was already dead on paper. Did anyone read it and not say anything just in case they lost their jobs or something? What are you going to do next to top this?"

There's probably many different positions you take between those two I described, but neither 'extreme' is improbable. I'm sure there's probably a lot of people who agree with one or the other to a greater or lesser degree.

I remember reading in the "Making of Star Trek" about the writers guide they put together for demonstrating how characters and elements (such as the ship) would react during a story in certain situations. And one of the points they stressed was if you don't maintain the broad rules that create the fictional situation, then it doesn't work. One of the examples they had were Kirk suddently grabbing a female crew member and hugging her during a desperate space battle. One of the tests they applied is if you changed the scenario from space on the Enterprise to the Vietnam war and it still doesn't work..then don't do it. Terry Nation in all the series he worked on, he knew what to change and invent, what to build upon and what not to change. That's why Blake's 7 and Survivors worked so well.

Once people get confused and disoriented trying to follow a story with no rules, and once a series is broken in such a way, then fixing it becomes all the harder.

[kalmar]

What are you going to do next to top this?"

Hmm, I wonder if the Doctor could visit the Earth in the future, where ocean levels have covered almost all the land, and a race of intelligent sharks is the dominant life form.

[Sir_LANs-a-lot]

Why did Dalek Caan instigate another "Emergency Temporal Shift"? - It's not like the Doctor was armed and about to destroy him in some way.

The Dalek has an energy shield and a death ray (and can leave a dreadful mark with that plunger).

[Sir_LANs-a-lot]

What are you going to do next to top this?"

Hmm, I wonder if the Doctor could visit the Earth in the future, where ocean levels have covered almost all the land, and a race of intelligent sharks is the dominant life form.

I hope they're sharks with frickin' LAYZORZ on their heads.

[kalmar]

It's probably time that Dr Who became post-modern and in-jokey.
Like X-Files did - in the period where they'd used all the ideas but still took it seriously, it was shit. When they gave up on that and just started doing daft stuff, it became much more enjoyable.

[Mayhem]

Why did Dalek Caan instigate another "Emergency Temporal Shift"? - It's not like the Doctor was armed and about to destroy him in some way.

The Dalek has an energy shield and a death ray (and can leave a dreadful mark with that plunger).

Because it was still the Doctor... perhaps all Daleks are actually latrophobic. Maybe it was metaphorically crapping itself. Maybe as stated it is the one that ended up in "Dalek" and suffered amnesia in the process. Will we see it again, that's the question.

[Sir_LANs-a-lot]

It's probably time that Dr Who became post-modern and in-jokey.
Like X-Files did - in the period where they'd used all the ideas but still took it seriously, it was shit. When they gave up on that and just started doing daft stuff, it became much more enjoyable.

You mean like Bertie Bassett baddies? No ta.

[IronGiant]

It's probably time that Dr Who became post-modern and in-jokey.
Like X-Files did - in the period where they'd used all the ideas but still took it seriously, it was shit. When they gave up on that and just started doing daft stuff, it became much more enjoyable.

Alternatively they could replace RTD with a producer of Philip Hinchcliffe's calibre and ensure they always used good writers .........

[Darkflame]

I think the time-lordyness doesnt come purely from DNA, hence I wouldn't criticise the Lightening too much. For all we know something about Time Lords makes part of their being conductive.
I agree about internal logic, however.

It is getting to the point of being silly, cranking out improbable story elements and deus ex machina endings like some bad B-Movie or kids Saturday morning cartoon. Take the final scene with the Doctor facing down Dalek Caan. If the Doctor had suddenly pointed his finger at the Dalek and a bolt of lightning shot out, Dalek explodes..then how would people have reacted? Would they have even noticed given recent episodes?

RTD goes on Confidential and bangs enthusiastic about "How there's a lot we don't know about the Doctor and this ending just wraps everything up neatly." The fanboys nod their heads and say "Wow, the doctor is like..amazing! Lightning bolts, we haven't seen those before from him..He's like the best Doctor ever!"

Whereas I would have thought "Very bad writing. And trying to play it off as 'of course this is what the doctor would/could do' just shows how bad it was. You spent all this money and effort on something that was already dead on paper. Did anyone read it and not say anything just in case they lost their jobs or something? What are you going to do next to top this?"

There's probably many different positions you take between those two I described, but neither 'extreme' is improbable. I'm sure there's probably a lot of people who agree with one or the other to a greater or lesser degree.

I agree absolutely with your overall point, but I still don't think the Lighten strike specifically is as Dues-Ex as you paint.

The Doctor put himself in between the conductor and the strike, at the very least that's going to weaken the impact no?
I assume when he did that it would simply mean they only get half-converted, which would have been enough to explain their actions.

So that more leaves the question, can a time lord survive a direct strike by that much electricity?

I think this has a higher degree of plausibility then the end of season1 where the Daleks were wished away, or, indeed, the traffic jam episode were the Doc was the only person that could open the sun roof.

Overall, I think the series has some excellent concepts, but it just isnt so hot at the story execution.
If they did something so silly as Doc shotting lighting bolts (or chucking a giant "D" logo from his chest), I would certainly critise.