The 360 thread!

gilesgoat · Post by **gilesgoat** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:29 am 0

I think there's something a bit "strange" going inside MS in the XBLA/consoles division ...

Fact is quite some people left, there's been "movements" there and there ..

I am quite sure we passed from the "phase" "oh please do some game
for XBLA" to the "phase" "We have far so many people wanting to do
XBLA stuff we can be as picky as we like".

The certification process certainly appears to be quite slow and someway
inefficiently handled I am quite sure there are a few things that could
be done to it to cut down some times and I'll be going to tell MS my minds when all this will be over.

Fact is, the way the whole thing is structured so far does not really allow
the developer to speed up times and this also mean it increases the costs
of XBLA developement.

I think I could say the dream of "XBLA open space to small developers
and cheap costs" IMHO it's only partially true, true that it costs less to
develop than a full retail game ( of course ) but we are not even speaking
at the money that "the bedroom coder can find by his/her own", the
investment is still significant and not small ( in "absolute terms" ).

Anyway my idea is .. well .. can't say it fully here .. but certainly yes some
optimization can be done and should be done in the interest of developers
( IF they really want to care of developers ).

Yak · Post by **Yak** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:44 am 0

Basically *add six fucking months to whatever you plan to do*. Unless you have some magic pass or something. Because we've got something really nice, certainly one of the best things on XBLA to date, and trying to get the damn thing over the finish line is just comically surreal now. I was seriously hoping to be done and dusted by the end of April, and at that time I thought that was realistic. Now it's like a fever dream, just keeps on and on and there is no frame of reference any more to make it real. There isn't really anything that I can look at as concrete to make it even feel like there is an end any more.

Factor in that Llamasoft hasn't had any income anyway for a long time, and there is this whole extra unexpected *half year* that gets added to the dev cycle, and quite apart from the stressing effect it has on us personally there is that to be figured into things too... we need to get it out but there's this endless cotton-wool detached delay involved in trying to do anything to actually get it out...

maybe if you're a larger outfit and it's just part of your dayjob this kind of mush in the process doesn't hurt at all since you're getting paid anyway, but when it's just the two of you and it's your pride and joy and you know it's fucking lovely but you just can't ever quite get to the completion state, ah, christ it hurts...

never mind a month off, after this I am not sure how fucking long it'll be before I can sit down to code without anxiety attacks...

although hopefully it's just the end process that causes the anx rather than coding.

but yeah, out of everything, it is this part I am finding the hardest. Maybe in larger teams it's not felt so much but for us two it's brutal.

Anders · Post by **Anders** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:41 pm 0

There is an unconfirmed rumour about that this weeks XBLA title is Golden Axe. Still no Bomberman or Giraffe...

jshawnd · Post by **jshawnd** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:09 am 0

Just saw Space Giraffe on the (Microsoft Press Conference) montage of games coming this year!

Flabio · Post by **Flabio** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:17 am 0

jshawnd wrote:Just saw Space Giraffe on the (Microsoft Press Conference) montage of games coming this year!

Yeah, look on the brightside guys, you know you're definitely out before Jan now...

GeeZa · Post by **GeeZa** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:31 am 0

Yak wrote:maybe if you're a larger outfit and it's just part of your dayjob this kind of mush in the process doesn't hurt at all since you're getting paid anyway, but when it's just the two of you and it's your pride and joy and you know it's fucking lovely but you just can't ever quite get to the completion state, ah, christ it hurts...

Welcome to the corporate certification process. It is a tortuous, illogical, opaque, frustrating and downright infuriating bureaucracy of madness. You'd be amazed and appalled (or probably wouldn't) at just how much money and resource is expended on what amounts to ticking boxes in large (typically American) software companies. Now I'm not saying that the XBLA process is as bad or large-scale as others I've seen, but from the pain you and Giles seem to have expressed over the last few months it certainly seems like there's some commonality there. All developers hate it, take my word for it.

Just get through it. It's an assembly-line process, you have essentially no control. Reading the obvious and growing anguish and stress this is causing you guys is pretty hard going tbh, it's such a shame. Don't, for goodness sake, let it get the better of you. It's tough not knowing the score, but there *is* an end of the line and SG *will* come out soon and it's obviously going to be a hugely gigantic success. Pain now but glory later, not bad odds. Sit tight, try and relax, and soon enough people will be buying the game across the world. Just don't beat yourself up and let something ultimately as ephemeral as a process get you down. Keep the chin up and the upper lip stiff and wobble-free. All will be well with the world soon and the mein hairies will revel in massive victoly.

The games industry needs you guys, never forget that. *Badly* needs.

Flabio · Post by **Flabio** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:37 am 0

God yeah, I hate the certification process. I'm assuming MS are handling the ESRB, PEGI and BBFC stuff for you right? Those are even more painful to do than the TRC stuff is. I do suspect the MS test team are a little overloaded at the moment, what with Halo3 surely going through it's release candidate phase at this point. Even their resources aren't infinite, and it's fairly obvious where they're going to be concentrating their efforts at the moment.

As for why Sensi Soccer has a date, it's more than possible they've been in the process as long as you guys have. It was announced at X06 last summer after all...

It's about the only good thing about PC game development. Although Games for Windows has a certification process, not every publisher cares enough to go for the 'games for windows' logo yet.

HGFB · Post by **HGFB** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:49 am 0

Surely it's a good sign too when MS give you guys a bit of promotion at E3

Flabio · Post by **Flabio** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:51 am 0

Yeah, saw a lot more of your game than ours in that

peter_cushion · Post by **peter_cushion** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:01 am 0

I reckon the testers are too engrossed in the game and are neglecting their paperwork:

'Space Giraffe certification update - Rob? Are we nearly there?'
'My giraffe is in another castle...'
'Rob, we really need-'
'MOO! MOO!'
'This is all over E3 - we need it out there. You turned Sensible Soccer around in 3 days...'
'I need to clock this before release - it's original IP and could have anything in there. Do you want children's blood on your hands? Well? Do you?'

RageMatrix · Post by **RageMatrix** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:30 am 0

Golden Axe and Sonic the Hedgehog on XBLA today?

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=79384

I hope this paves the way for lots more Megadrive/Genesis games on XBLA. I personally would love Toejam & Earl, Streets of Rage, Castle of Illusion and Sword of Vermillion. A little Super Hang-On wouldn't go amiss, either.

Yes, yes - I know all of these are on Wii VC, but I'm not forking out for a console just for that.

Anders · Post by **Anders** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:36 am 0

There's a Blue Dragon demo up now, 1,13 gb.

And yes, both Sonic and Legendary Axe are available from XBLA at 400 points each. Demos are available.

HGFB · Post by **HGFB** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:47 am 0

Anders wrote:There's a Blue Dragon demo up now, 1,13 gb.

That's my download schedule sorted for tonight

RageMatrix · Post by **RageMatrix** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:49 am 0

Anders wrote:There's a Blue Dragon demo up now, 1,13 gb.

And yes, both Sonic and Legendary Axe are available from XBLA at 400 points each. Demos are available.

Right, I'm downloading all of that tonight, then

limb_clock · Post by **limb_clock** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:57 am 0

Yak wrote: Factor in that Llamasoft hasn't had any income anyway for a long time, and there is this whole extra unexpected *half year* that gets added to the dev cycle, and quite apart from the stressing effect it has on us personally there is that to be figured into things too... we need to get it out but there's this endless cotton-wool detached delay involved in trying to do anything to actually get it out...

never mind a month off, after this I am not sure how fucking long it'll be before I can sit down to code without anxiety attacks...

although hopefully it's just the end process that causes the anx rather than coding.

but yeah, out of everything, it is this part I am finding the hardest. Maybe in larger teams it's not felt so much but for us two it's brutal.

Reading this makes me feel really sorry for you, and also get anxious if people in animation ever have to go throught these things

It's also really unfair that you've made an original game that's not "extended" from previous online games like Astro Pop and Feeding Frenzy are.