It maybe is, but it's still complex.drivenstorm wrote:Yak wrote:I am not about to re-enter MS cert for you, me, or God Himself.
Fair enough
And I thought the 360 was the easiest platform to develop for
Leaderboard Bug? (or: I've lost WiredWorm!)
-
gilesgoat
- Sheepie Whore
- Posts: 27259
- Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:54 am 0
- Location: Monfalcone, Italy
- Contact:
I well hope not, it should be not .. otherwise this thing is going to cost a fortune ...membran wrote:Argl, only one line of code changing and still a full MS Cert? That's sick.
But ok, so I'll just have to use the dashboard leaderboard to compare. Thanks anyway for the heads up.
Giles the billy goat
"Baa"
"Baa"
Would you have to re-enter MS cert to fix scoring bugs?Yak wrote:I am not about to re-enter MS cert for you, me, or God Himself.
Xbox Live: Dr Alisdair
-
gilesgoat
- Sheepie Whore
- Posts: 27259
- Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:54 am 0
- Location: Monfalcone, Italy
- Contact:
Hopefully not .. I'll guess we'll find it out really soon.alisdair wrote:Would you have to re-enter MS cert to fix scoring bugs?Yak wrote:I am not about to re-enter MS cert for you, me, or God Himself.
I am not scared of the time, I am not scared of the fix ( we already
know how to fix all that and it's an easy fix ) .. I am scared of the price ..
Giles the billy goat
"Baa"
"Baa"
Leave it a while and see what else comes out of the mix, then?gilesgoat wrote:Hopefully not .. I'll guess we'll find it out really soon.alisdair wrote:Would you have to re-enter MS cert to fix scoring bugs?Yak wrote:I am not about to re-enter MS cert for you, me, or God Himself.
I am not scared of the time, I am not scared of the fix ( we already
know how to fix all that and it's an easy fix ) .. I am scared of the price ..
I so want this to be succesful for you guys.
Oh dear. I'm feeling with you guys. With around 7000 players in the leaderboard and about 5$ that's only 35.000$ up until now. Split in two, minus a percentage Microsoft will / could take for letting you use XBLA (just a guess), other running expenses and now a probably pricey re-cert. I didn't know cert costs money. Doesn't leave so much bread on the table for a game I didn't know how long you guys have worked on, but I can imagine.
I'll hope for the best for you two, and that your work on this game is well rewarded. I, for my part, am spreading the word how great Space Giraffe is amongst my online buddies.
Could you please keep us updated about that leaderboard / powerzone bug thing?
I'll hope for the best for you two, and that your work on this game is well rewarded. I, for my part, am spreading the word how great Space Giraffe is amongst my online buddies.
Could you please keep us updated about that leaderboard / powerzone bug thing?
Last edited by membran on Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:59 pm 0, edited 2 times in total.
I am not going back into bloody cert again.
The period leading up to the release of this has been one of the most uniquely stressful things I've ever done. I'd no more voluntarily walk back into all that than I'd voluntarily walk into a bank of rotating knives and axes.
All this is trivial stuff that involves a few one-line fixes, if necessary we'll do that, but I am not walking back into that hell again and I am not going to goddamn *pay* to do so.
And next time out I want proper bloody test. Fucks sake.
The period leading up to the release of this has been one of the most uniquely stressful things I've ever done. I'd no more voluntarily walk back into all that than I'd voluntarily walk into a bank of rotating knives and axes.
All this is trivial stuff that involves a few one-line fixes, if necessary we'll do that, but I am not walking back into that hell again and I am not going to goddamn *pay* to do so.
And next time out I want proper bloody test. Fucks sake.
Justified and Ancient.
-
korruptor
- Baaaaaa!
- Posts: 4291
- Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2002 10:35 am 0
- Location: Under The Northern Lights
- Contact:
Like the ninja, I am invisible...Wudzi wrote:I noticed something a bit strange yesterday actually. Korrupter360 is in my friends list, but although I can see his score on the leaderboard, when I filter to my friends list, his score doesn't appear.
"Don't go into a trance boys..." :: DJ Mixes
-
TodaysForgotten
- Baaaa!
- Posts: 532
- Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:20 pm 0
- Location: New Jersey, USA
that blows, dude. Im sure MS will be "cheap" enough to charge you. Hopefully though, the gods that be will look the other way and just let it slide this time.Yak wrote:I am not going back into bloody cert again.
The period leading up to the release of this has been one of the most uniquely stressful things I've ever done. I'd no more voluntarily walk back into all that than I'd voluntarily walk into a bank of rotating knives and axes.
All this is trivial stuff that involves a few one-line fixes, if necessary we'll do that, but I am not walking back into that hell again and I am not going to goddamn *pay* to do so.
And next time out I want proper bloody test. Fucks sake.
Did MS do "beta" testing too? or just you two and other's?
-
TodaysForgotten
- Baaaa!
- Posts: 532
- Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:20 pm 0
- Location: New Jersey, USA
It isn't MS's fault.
Their test is geared towards certain specific things - TCR compliance and suchlike, it isn't intended to be a complete and thorough test of the actual game.
Actual game test we tried to cover with our volunteer alpha team, and those guys have been playing since early Spring, but despite that and us here playing it forever it obviously didn't turn up stupid things like the damn holding the trigger in PZ thing (who the hell would do that? obviously people do but by goat so many of us played the game and nobody ever did that)...
Back at Atari test we had mad people who would just try and break stuff, they would have found such stuff, but test and cert and stuff was way different at Atari than it is here now.
It's worrying because it's not the kind of stuff I can test for, I can't have an Atari-style test team to help me, it isn't MS's fault since their test is geared towards certain specific things, there is no way that a small outfit like LS can afford "professional" test services which run into hundreds of grand per title, and I can't just point to a handful of guys and say "you guys get test kits, help us for the price of a curry" because I think that even though some people would do that for us the infrastructure to do that isn't there.
It's trivial stuff that should've been found months ago. It's making me completely upset and depressed that we even have to spend time fixing it when by rights we should be enjoying a bit of relaxation time after release. Instead of the stress going away it's just got worse. I think we can fix it this time, so long as TPTB play nice with us and don't decide to extract a pound of flesh - if they do, we're finished. And even if they don't, what can we do next time? A title needs proper test and I don't see how we can get it in the current model, and at this point I really don't know what to do.
At this point I'm too upset to really be much use. I'm going offline from YY and from everything until I can report some kind of solution to all this. It's just a handful of stupid trivial things that have conspired to make this all a big mess. Best game I've ever made spoiled by just stupid things. I'm so gutted.
Their test is geared towards certain specific things - TCR compliance and suchlike, it isn't intended to be a complete and thorough test of the actual game.
Actual game test we tried to cover with our volunteer alpha team, and those guys have been playing since early Spring, but despite that and us here playing it forever it obviously didn't turn up stupid things like the damn holding the trigger in PZ thing (who the hell would do that? obviously people do but by goat so many of us played the game and nobody ever did that)...
Back at Atari test we had mad people who would just try and break stuff, they would have found such stuff, but test and cert and stuff was way different at Atari than it is here now.
It's worrying because it's not the kind of stuff I can test for, I can't have an Atari-style test team to help me, it isn't MS's fault since their test is geared towards certain specific things, there is no way that a small outfit like LS can afford "professional" test services which run into hundreds of grand per title, and I can't just point to a handful of guys and say "you guys get test kits, help us for the price of a curry" because I think that even though some people would do that for us the infrastructure to do that isn't there.
It's trivial stuff that should've been found months ago. It's making me completely upset and depressed that we even have to spend time fixing it when by rights we should be enjoying a bit of relaxation time after release. Instead of the stress going away it's just got worse. I think we can fix it this time, so long as TPTB play nice with us and don't decide to extract a pound of flesh - if they do, we're finished. And even if they don't, what can we do next time? A title needs proper test and I don't see how we can get it in the current model, and at this point I really don't know what to do.
At this point I'm too upset to really be much use. I'm going offline from YY and from everything until I can report some kind of solution to all this. It's just a handful of stupid trivial things that have conspired to make this all a big mess. Best game I've ever made spoiled by just stupid things. I'm so gutted.
Justified and Ancient.
We have a blog here in Germany run by a microsoft employee (the product manager for Xbox in Germany, he did something dealing with Xbox Live before that IIRC), quite similar to major nelson's blog, but it's more some kind of personal blog with a posting on Xbox topics thrown in every now and then.
Right before the launch of the 360, he explained roughly was certification is. There he said that certification checks a list of predefined things, basic stuff, like if a game runs on each revision of the console, if it crashes when the DVD is dirty (and if the correct - standard - error message is shown), if loading and saving works, if all video modes are supported, what happens if the controller runs out of battery power (should be auto pausing the game), if save games of other products are endangered etc.
What certification doesn't do or check, is dealing with logical issues within the game, if the game is even beatable (or does a bug prevent the player from ever finishing it), how fast the online mode is with seven players - three with bad ping, or what happens if you go backward through a door. That kind of stuff has to be handled by the programmers of the game, and has nothing to do with certification.
You can also read the poorly translated version by "google translate" here:
http://google.de/translate?u=http%3A%2F ... en&ie=UTF8
Right before the launch of the 360, he explained roughly was certification is. There he said that certification checks a list of predefined things, basic stuff, like if a game runs on each revision of the console, if it crashes when the DVD is dirty (and if the correct - standard - error message is shown), if loading and saving works, if all video modes are supported, what happens if the controller runs out of battery power (should be auto pausing the game), if save games of other products are endangered etc.
What certification doesn't do or check, is dealing with logical issues within the game, if the game is even beatable (or does a bug prevent the player from ever finishing it), how fast the online mode is with seven players - three with bad ping, or what happens if you go backward through a door. That kind of stuff has to be handled by the programmers of the game, and has nothing to do with certification.
You can also read the poorly translated version by "google translate" here:
http://google.de/translate?u=http%3A%2F ... en&ie=UTF8
I'm very, very sorry to hear that. But that's a valid point you implied: Sure, some guy found out a glitch and the friend's leaderboard is busted. With luck, it could be fixed easily, but without proper testing it could only be a matter of days or weeks before the next best thing pops up. Maybe waiting to gather more bugs would be better for your current balance, as bitter as it sounds.Yak wrote:It isn't MS's fault.
At this point I'm too upset to really be much use. I'm going offline from YY and from everything until I can report some kind of solution to all this. It's just a handful of stupid trivial things that have conspired to make this all a big mess. Best game I've ever made spoiled by just stupid things. I'm so gutted.
Keeping my fingers crossed that that was it bug-wise and that fixing goes without problems of any kind!