Being killed by bullets not yet at the rim?

[rockwaldo]

All true Rik, which is why I think they need someone to sit inbetween them and the "punters" to field these often inane questions. To ask the developers to answer such things while staying emotionally attached and professional is a bit much.

I know how hard it is to take critisism - a few of my major work projects have had their critics, and it is sometimes really hard to avoid jumping down their throats - but thats exactly what I had to avoid doing as I quite like being paid for work.

[matt]

I'm bright eyed and bushy tailed this morning, and have just read these last few messages and am positive that this can all be resolved in a nice, calm, friendly cup of tea way. I'm almost sorry that I asked the question in the first place, but I'm glad I did because I still think it's something that needed talking about for the greater good of everybody.

J&G have my utmost respect - it has been a massive stress getting the game out of the door for them as we all now. Perhaps they had just not considered the prospect of there actually being any bugs in the game, which is a real shame considering such bugs will cost them money. There are bugs or quirks in almost every bit of software, aren't there? Anyway, I just hope that the next game is tested more thoroughly and that there is a space in the plan for the potential for bugs to be spotted.

Jamie is right in saying that there was a definite yes/no answer to my question and for some reason this was avoided and the thread has turned into a rant. That definitely needs to be learnt from by one and all.

As previously stated, I don't expect anything to be done about any issues I raise because I understand I am pretty late to the testing-for-patch game. But I am sure that I have discussed every bit of what I have spotted politely and fairly. And you have to expect people talking about the way your game works as they come to play it?

Finally, I really like The Captain's Venn diagram.

[choddo]

All this over the size of an effing bullet effect zone?

[choddo]

I'm glad I did because I still think it's something that needed talking about for the greater good of everybody.

I think you got it in about the 3rd post or something. You're cutting it too fine.

[Jamie]

Yeah I think we all completely understand, we all know what a long road this has been for Yak & Giles; and when that jump bug cropped up, christ I think all our hearts really went out to Yak & Giles there.

But y'know Matt's is a very relevant question and of all the places on the net this *should* be where we are able to discuss such issues. It's just a shame objective discussion can't be had, I think people are starting to come to the conclusion that it's better not to say anything at all now, which is a shame.

Please don't think I was being critical of Matt's observation, indeed I've seen the same thing myself and it caught me out too. Thankfully after a few hours play my brain seems to have calibrated itself ok and now I'm not really finding it a problem at all. Well, I've managed to score 100 million so far without too much trouble.

Just wanted to add a little insight into just why Jeff and Giles have reacted as they have is all.

I'm trying as best I can to understand the reaction but it is quite difficult when I think the bullet observation is a very genuine question. Having said that though, the last thing i'd want to do is make either of them feel bad, i'm not a nasty person and I never willing make anyone feel bad, least of all people I have huge respect for. Quite the opposite in fact, I want to congratulate them for making the best arcade shooter since T2K, I, for one, can't stop playing it.

Do be honest it doesn't spoil my enjoyment of the game either, like Rik i've adjusted the way I play and there's no problem.

Don't stop making games because of this though, maybe for the next one someone should spend the first month as a buffer between Jeff and Giles and everyone else?

If you stop though, who else are we going to call a cunt for making such arsehole enemies?

[gravy]

Do be honest it doesn't spoil my enjoyment of the game either, like Rik i've adjusted the way I play and there's no problem.

To put this in perspective has it stopped anyone from enjoying the game?

I'm not trying to invalidate your feelings about this matt but it is possible this is something of major irritation to you that isn't to others.

[choddo]

Perhaps they had just not considered the prospect of there actually being any bugs in the game

Yeah I'm sure that possibility would never have occurred to them and testing was just never undertaken at all.

which is a real shame considering such bugs will cost them money.

Hmm, I doubt it in this case. £3.40 maybe. And it's not really a "bug" imho.

But I am sure that I have discussed every bit of what I have spotted politely and fairly. And you have to expect people talking about the way your game works as they come to play it?

I'd totally agree with that. But I think you've vastly over-blown this.

[TwistedScrote]

Hasn't stopped me from playing SG. I had noticed a couple of times that I seemed to die when I really shoudn't have. I just call it an occaisional 'quirk' and ignore it. It's really not a game breaker as such.... simply because it's quite easy to earn another life and get it back.


I think we all understand the stress that the chaps have been under.... as someone else has posted, ALL of us felt really sorry for the chaps when the glitch was discovered.....

SG really is something different and is a stunning game.... but Rocky hit the nail on the head when he suggested that *someone* should be the middle man here... It's a shame PVB is on his hols (Hope you are having fun Steve!) because he is perfect for this role!

There's loads of lessons to learn from this (And bear in mind this is the first game from the chaps on XBLA!) So there's no doubt at all that the next game is going to be an even better experience.

After dealing with a total lack of after sales support from Team 10 it's been amazing being able to come in here and ask questions to Yak and Giles and have answers, get pointers from them and all the while they've been trying to deal with all of us AND work on a patch as well. That's an incredible amount of work to deal with.... so with my wide awake head on this morning I can see more clearly the workload they have been under and the stress they've dealt with.

So chaps just enjoy the praise and love from everybody who's got this game and loves it. Because it really is so different from the *normal* kind of game out there, and that can only be good for everyone.

As Jeff has said, pointers have been noticed for the next game!


Here's one that is contraversial (sp?)

For the testing of the next game....have a VERY strict and impartial person inviolved. I'm not suggesting that the test team on SG wasn't 'doing their job' but having friends doing the testing who can see first hand the effort and stress that you two are going through is asking for trouble. It may effect the testing where things have evolved through the game had been subconciously 'stepped over' ie. the bullet effect. Plus a new arrival would probably spot something missed.... for example the jumping exploit. Fresh eyes always spot something! It would avoid the heartache you chaps have gone through.
The Rev leaps to mind (honestly!) because you wouldn't get any punches pulled.... you would get a warts and all view. And for it's worth, whatever people think of him......he has a track record of being able to look under the bonnet of games.

[fog]

Do be honest it doesn't spoil my enjoyment of the game either, like Rik i've adjusted the way I play and there's no problem.

To put this in perspective has it stopped anyone from enjoying the game?

I'm not trying to invalidate your feelings about this matt but it is possible this is something of major irritation to you that isn't to others.

Reading this and other threads and based on my experience, I'd say that yes, it's irritating the first few times it happens but you adjust your play style to match. Does it spoil your long term enjoyment of the game? In my case no.

Perhaps they had just not considered the prospect of there actually being any bugs in the game

Yeah I'm sure that possibility would never have occurred to them and testing was just never undertaken at all.

which is a real shame considering such bugs will cost them money.

Hmm, I doubt it in this case. £3.40 maybe. And it's not really a "bug" imho.

But I am sure that I have discussed every bit of what I have spotted politely and fairly. And you have to expect people talking about the way your game works as they come to play it?

I'd totally agree with that. But I think you've vastly over-blown this.

Come on be fair. As far as I can see Matt has been nothing but polite and constructive in this whole thread. It's almost as if you're willfully misinterpreting what he's saying.

[matt]

choddo: your opinion is fair enough

Do be honest it doesn't spoil my enjoyment of the game either, like Rik i've adjusted the way I play and there's no problem.

To put this in perspective has it stopped anyone from enjoying the game?

I'm not trying to invalidate your feelings about this matt but it is possible this is something of major irritation to you that isn't to others.

I tried to get that across earlier, when I mentioned other small unexpected things in life that annoy me. I was just looking for a reasonable explanation of what I was seeing and why I was seeing it.

If it's that the giraffe's head is down the lane I'll learn to live with that even though i can't see it myself.

Some good points raised by everybody in this thread and I think I'll leave my input there.

Thanks
matt

[disciple]

I'm almost sorry that I asked the question in the first place, but I'm glad I did because I still think it's something that needed talking about for the greater good of everybody.

Well I am glad you raised the issue, it is very relevant to SG's gameplay and ranting aside it's an interesting discussion.

I'd hate to think we can't have open discussion on a game here because it's a Llamasoft title.

[Meatpuppet]

I think it's fair to say that the Forums and Yaks/Giles's precence here is a bit
of a double edged sword. On the one hand members are openley invited into their world to greater and lesser extents, and on the other in cases like SG criticism, it has not been handled well by llamasoft - but, that's the creative industries for you. I think us the audience, since we've been given a priviliged insight into this games development, should also grow a bit of a tougher skin when Y&G get upset over what they see at times as unjustified hassle and noise.

In future, as suggested earlier in the thread, a more objective test team would prob' benefit the de-bugging process..

Please don't stop making games! I'd hate to see a Neon-Engine based spreadsheet app..

[Yak]

Just to clarify a bit - of course I don't mean that people can't discuss SG - all I mean is that I will likely stay out of such discussions simply because I absolutely need to. I've got too close to SG, to the point where I care about it too much, and that has I admit made me tetchy when people have been discussing its flaws. Until I can put a decent emotional distance between myself and the 'raffe then it's best I simply stay out of the discussions I think, not out of any desire to be elusive, just so that i don't end up pissing people off.

It may sound odd but I need to learn not to care about SG any more. Of course I'll always love it but now everything that will be done to it is done. Once the patched version comes out then that's it, SG 360 will never change again no matter what anybody finds or whichever flaws remain. For me, that conclusion has already occurred, since we've sent the patch to MS. So I just need to learn to turn my back and dust off my hands and *not care* any more, because caring can't help any more. It's the only way I'll stop upsetting myself and other people.

Of course that can't happen instantly, it'll take a little time and a little distance, and that just means me staying out of SG discussions for now, that's all. It's time for me to look forward rather than back now .

Thanks to Rik for explaining better than I could some of the stuff we've been through, and to everyone else with putting up with our tetchiness.

[Jamesac]

Please don't stop making games! I'd hate to see a Neon-Engine based spreadsheet app..

I'd hate to see that too, especially as I was more hoping for the Neon-based word processor.

James

[RiK]

Thanks to Rik for explaining better than I could some of the stuff we've been through, and to everyone else with putting up with our tetchiness.

No problemo, it's my job innit