Xbox 360 Elite question

disciple · Post by **disciple** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:00 pm 0

Yeah, 720p then.

Dio · Post by **Dio** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:10 pm 0

disciple wrote:Though I guess modern TVs might have stuff in to compensate but if a modern HDTV is having to compensate it's post-processing the image meaning a delay in image display, probably then resulting in a few extra milliseconds lag between you pressing your joypad button and the telly displaying the postprocessed image from your 360.

Deinterlacing is a solved problem - admittedly for a given value of solved - and doesn't cause anything like as much trauma as you seem to be claiming here.

I mean - obviously, otherwise all terrestrial TV, many DVD's and any console pre the 360 would look like crap on a flatpanel.

disciple · Post by **disciple** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:15 pm 0

Dio wrote:Deinterlacing is a solved problem - admittedly for a given value of solved

What does this mean?

Dio · Post by **Dio** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:38 pm 0

As I pointed out above, if you're not complaining about the quality of picture on your LCD TV when you're watching any existing TV channel connected by SCART, you clearly can't consider deinterlacing a major issue.

Which is not to say that it's a completely solved issue from an image processing point of view, but the current solutions are 'good enough' for most of the population.

disciple · Post by **disciple** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:53 pm 0

Didn't I cover that with the post-processing comment you quoted above?

Mayhem · Post by **Mayhem** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:26 pm 0

Sickboy wrote:Eek. I'm getting a greyed-out 1080p option on my Panasonic plasma. HDMI cable all jacked in. What's that all about, then?

How big's the plasma? Having done a bit of research, anything 42" and above is 1080 pixels vertical and hence should support 1080p natively (rather than rescaling).

Sickboy · Post by **Sickboy** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:28 pm 0

My brain hurts.

Dio · Post by **Dio** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:33 pm 0

disciple wrote:Didn't I cover that with the post-processing comment you quoted above?

You implied it was only for the most fancy-pants TV's and it implied a lot of lag. It isn't and it doesn't; it's in every flatpanel, and while there are algorithms available that do lag, there's no general requirement than to have two fields, and I wouldn't be surprised if you find there is no difference in the lag on progressive as opposed to interlaced scan - there doesn't appear to be on my LCD.

Loada · Post by **Loada** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:34 am 0

Sickboy, I'll do my best

Right, most 42" panels support 720p natively - that is the resolution of the panel, usually 1024x768, is capable of drawing all the lines without scaling in the vertical plane and only a slight scale horizontally - these are usually called "HD Ready". Some of these will support a 1080p input but will scale it (down) to the native resolution. However, there are some very new 42" panels (Panasonic 42PZ700 for example) that support 1080p natively - the screen's resolution is 1920x1080. If you have one of those, you should happily have 1080p - this is usually called "Full HD".

50" "HD ready" panels usually have a display of 1368x768. This will show 720p material natively with minimal scaling and will handle 1080p in the same manner as the "HD ready" 42" panels.

So, back to YOUR Panasonic plasma. It probably boils down to the fact that during the HDMI hand-shaking with your 360, the telly lets it slip that it can't support 1080p and so the 360 greys this option out. It's no big deal because even if it did, your panel would have to scale it down anyway. Ultimately, you should find that 720p is the sweet setting for your TV in terms of its native resolution and perhaps maybe 1080i depending on the quality of the panel's own internal deinterlacing/scaling prowess (pretty good on all Panasonics). In the end, it's upto your eyes which you feel is best but I'd recommend 720p. The 360 almost certainly does a load of jiggery-pokery to scale up to 1080i/p anyway rather than doing things natively in those resolutions - by running those highest resolutions, you're only getting the 360's and your TV's scaling/deinterlacing engines running white hot for very little gain on screen.

Like most things on the internet, this stuff seems to be fodder for endless religious debate but my comments come through MY OWN EXPERIENCE with 42"/50" plasmas and external scaling (Lumagen HD) and I could be wrong in the grander scheme of things. Hope it helps anyway.

Sickboy · Post by **Sickboy** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:41 am 0

OK. Thanks for taking the time to explain slowly.

Me understand now.

1080i does look loads better than 720, though.

Ely · Post by **Ely** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:59 am 0

Does this stuff get covered in Schools these days, I think it might need to be part of the National Curriculum

zip accident · Post by **zip accident** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:05 am 0

Wikipedia wrote:

720p versus 1080i

...

The main tradeoff between the two is that 1080i shows more detail than 720p for a stationary shot of a subject at the expense of a lower effective refresh rate and the introduction of interlace artifacts during motion.

...

In the USA, 720p is used by ABC, Fox Broadcasting Company and ESPN because the smoother image is desirable for fast-action sports telecasts, whereas 1080i is used by CBS, NBC, HBO and Discovery HD due to the crisper picture particularly in non-moving shots.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/720p

disciple · Post by **disciple** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:29 am 0

Sickboy wrote:OK. Thanks for taking the time to explain slowly. Me understand now.

1080i does look loads better than 720, though.

You *might* notice things fuck up during movement though.

Your telly takes time to convert images from one format to another.

It sounds like your telly's native resolution is 720p.

Imagine it took 0.25 seconds to convert an image from 1080i to 720p for display, what would happen is you'd push left on the joystick and it would take 0.25 seconds for your spaceship to (appear to) move left. Your controls would then feel very vague and wallowy and a bit imprecise.

Obviously it doesn't take 0.25 second to convert, it takes in the order of milliseconds but the delay will still be there.

Personally I'd go 1080i for static images and films where delay doesn't matter. 720p for gaming where reactions are paramount. Then again the difference is so minimal you'll probably never notice.

Loada · Post by **Loada** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:13 pm 0

Sorry to resurrect an old(ish) thread but my question is on-topic

I've got a 1st generation (launch) Premium 360 and amazingly <touches wood> it's still going! However, the DVD drive noise from Halo 3 is doing my head in - honestly, it's that loud it actually drowns out the game audio. My question is:

If I bought an Elite, would it be any quieter? I guess I'm appealing to people that have both or experience of a "normal" 360 vs an Elite??

There's talk of the 360 going to 65nm but I'm not sure that actually plays any part in making the DVD drive any quieter.

Rod_S · Post by **Rod_S** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:19 pm 0

Loada wrote: If I bought an Elite, would it be any quieter?

No, my Elite is like a fucking lawnmower with a game in the drive, just as bad as the Premiums and Cores I've played on. It's definitely impeding on the time I spend with Halo 3, for shame.

The console itself is a piece of shit, tbh. Good software though.