Yak quoted in Escapist article- Microsoft cert is crap

Inane baanter or words of wisdom - you decide...
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gilesgoat
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Post by gilesgoat »

Yak wrote:One thing I've thought of doing is have a set of levels in GR+++ that are only available to people who have already got SG. We'll see.

And I think the chances of me changing platform and restarting Unity are pretty much zero given my budget of £0, even if I wanted to.
I think we also need more consolidation in some other stuff, if SG was
quite a project a thing like Unity would be at least 2 a more complex project.

This means we'd need a quite solid budget backup, lot more time and
a really good placement of LS name with some titles.

It's a big project were people would be expecting lot of stuff from it.

I can't see a thing like that in a near future.
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Post by PVB »

Yak wrote:One thing I've thought of doing is have a set of levels in GR+++ that are only available to people who have already got SG. We'll see.
An excellent idea. :)


Any chance of themes/gamer pics in the future?
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Post by Governmentyard »

PVB wrote:
Yak wrote:One thing I've thought of doing is have a set of levels in GR+++ that are only available to people who have already got SG. We'll see.
An excellent idea. :)


Any chance of themes/gamer pics in the future?
Unlockable Hovver Bovver, assuming GR+++ is being developed form the PPC stylus version. Of course, it may be a totally new build.

Is SGPC coming out with NeonPC?

Also, didn;t M$ say XBox Live was coming to Windows at some point, and therefore SG with it, probably?

Lots of people have Vista, some of whom want to get Space Giraffe but don't have the money for a 360 or an HD telly.
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Post by gilesgoat »

... psst .. you can still play games on a cheap 4:3 tv, you don't need an HD one :wink:
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Post by Flabio »

And in reference to the topic, MS cert isn't any worse than anyone elses! In fact, everyones is much nicer than the Dreamcast one ever was...
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Post by teamonkey »

Flabio wrote:And in reference to the topic, MS cert isn't any worse than anyone elses! In fact, everyones is much nicer than the Dreamcast one ever was...
It's "worse" than Sony's in that they're much more strict, although some of the rules are waived in XBLA (I've been fighting with the XLAST this week :().
Yak wrote:One thing I've thought of doing is have a set of levels in GR+++ that are only available to people who have already got SG. We'll see.
I'd watch out for that. First of all, I'm not sure that you're actually allowed to do it according to the TCRs, but mainly beacuse the rabid gaming community really grudge paying for something only to discover bits of it being locked, regardless of the reality of the situation. It could end up with a bit of a backlash.

What you could do is have downloadable add-on packs - extra levels, tunes and stuff. Make one of them free to download a few weeks after release, but only unlock it if there's a SG save on the HDD. That way people get the game and later it looks like you're giving a present to loyal fans - something that the news sites will be pleased to jump on and give you PR for both games. I'm not sure, but I think you can have a different age rating for DLC so you might be able to add in a super sweary mode. :D
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Post by PVB »

teamonkey wrote:
Yak wrote:One thing I've thought of doing is have a set of levels in GR+++ that are only available to people who have already got SG. We'll see.
I'd watch out for that. First of all, I'm not sure that you're actually allowed to do it according to the TCRs, but mainly beacuse the rabid gaming community really grudge paying for something only to discover bits of it being locked, regardless of the reality of the situation. It could end up with a bit of a backlash.

What you could do is have downloadable add-on packs - extra levels, tunes and stuff. Make one of them free to download a few weeks after release, but only unlock it if there's a SG save on the HDD. That way people get the game and later it looks like you're giving a present to loyal fans - something that the news sites will be pleased to jump on and give you PR for both games. I'm not sure, but I think you can have a different age rating for DLC so you might be able to add in a super sweary mode. :D
I read it that Yak meant to do what you're suggesting anyway.
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Post by Jamesac »

This is one of the most depressing threads I've read on YakYak in a while. Seeing Llamasoft go from loaded down with Neon money to flat broke because new IP doesn't have the same following that a retread of an 80s game does makes me sad.

There was nothing wrong with Space Giraffe. It's an amazing game that deserves better than it got, and it's low sales shouldn't make Yak doubt his dsigner instincts. Simple as that, really, despite knowing something and having an emotional reaction that reflects that knowledge are two different things entirely.

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Post by sty »

I feel so sad reading this thread over the weekend as it has progressed.

It's been a really great, informative read, something that I'm happy we've been able to have here (thanks Yak and Giles for contributing) I've been getting concerned this place is a little too frivulous or agressive to have any meaningful discussion.

It's really sad to see Yak and Giles so beaten up by this whole incident. I'm sure I'm not the only one that saw XBLA as the perfect vehicle for Llamasoft's continuing new millennium return to superstardom and finally shunning the corporate control that had gripped the industry. It should have been perfect and a sitter for getting maximum revenue in for minimum lost control etc. etc.

I have a few theories about where the issue lies or could lie, but it's only speculation - but the interesting point for me is that while the cert process was an absoluet killer for Yak and Giles it really hasn't affected the bigger issue which is the take up rate.

Over the weekend I thought of myself and my buying patterns to see if I could offer any insight for them.

I dropped 400 points on SG the minute I saw it, but to be honest I'm like everyone on here in that I knew I would do anyway, I'd have lashed out NZ$100 on a DVD version if that was how it would have been released (for exactly the same game and not felt ripped off). Like I said though that isn't representative, so look at some of my other purchases.

I bought Geometry Wars Evolved when I first bought my 360, it had a huge groundswell of gaming opinion and just had to be bought as a system demonstrator. I'm shit at it and it caned my arse, and still does, I don't regret the purchase, I still play it. This game had PR everywhere in the early days, it couldn't really have failed in my view, I recon it would have a harder time today as the noise floor is much higher.

I've bought Zuma and lost a lot of time to it, enjoyed playing it, got a long way but not monsterously far. I got this again because friends were playing it and it's throwaway gaming at it's best for me. Thsi falls firmly into the Casual gaming bracket.

So it's all about casual gaming? not really, I played Hexic that I got free, don't really like it, never play it. I never bought Lumines, the prospect of having to put out and keep buying add in content to get everything put me off, especially as I would need to to get the achievements. I haven't bought bejewelled, yet I would buy Zoo Keeper in an instant (I love the DS version) as long as the demo convinces me that it's easy to play with joypad rather than mouse or touchpad.

I've dropped for a few "MAME games", but not every one. Odd selection as well, Joust (loved that game back in the day), Robotron (everyone plays it, I'm shite need practice), Frogger (no idea why I bought this, loved it got a lot of teh achievements), Scramble (brain fart day when I bought it, but suprisingly enjoyed it). But I haven't bought Defender (I'm shite), Pacman (heard the 8 way control was shit), etc.

All this stuff is disposable income stuff, not even worth thinking about, but I do! I know what I'm getting with Arcade emulations and it's rose tinted specs time. I still see stuff as a rip off though (lumines etc.) regardless fo whether it's still great value.

And original games? I haven't bought Mutant Storm, yet it would be perfect on two sticks, I almost got to love it on the mac but couldn't get the mouse and keyboard to click, but I know this would work on dual stick. Why haven't I bought it? Can't be arsed? would I just buy it on the right day? have I wasted too much money on MAME stuff? I need nudging over the edge I think, by friends, and the promise of some easy achievements maybe to nudge me forwards.

Stuff I'd love or am looking forward to-

Ikaruga, I'm shite at it, but I'd like to play it on 360 with nice pads again.
R-Type, I'd love this from back in the day
Nemesis (Gradius), I'd love this from back in the day

GR+++ - yep, I'd love this as the PC was a great game. (I'd like it to be a little easier for me, and maybe to be able to get half the achievements ;) )

Katamari - I'd love the originals on XBLA

It's all emotional stuff, I just have to been made to want to buy it.

One tiny thing that I think caught me about Space Giraffe, is that the game logo that appears in the little square on XBLA isn't as strong as some of the others on XBLA, it's a tiny thing but maybe that's part of the tiny subconscious thing for people?

Llamasoft stuff is so cool, always has been, always will be, I recon it needs PR PR PR, well really it needs coverage coverage coverage, so anything to help will be great. I think Yak is on the right track when he talks about keeping the pipeline full of smaller stuff, but it has to be playable (which I'm sure it will be), and I also think it needs to target the mythical "Casual Gamer" which the restart system on SG does brilliantly BTW.

Then it's about making it all desirable, just need to push people over the edge to spend their 400 or 800 points on a whim.

Maybe not such a comprehensive demo mode? more of a teaser?

This isn't any critiscism of LLamasoft right now, I think they have done brilliantly and published a great title, I just think the commercial dynamics of XBLA are a long way from understood right now. There is some valuable research and ideas punting buried in here yet. Probably like the whole Shareware thing back in the LLamatron days. If anybody can crack this I have faith in Yak and Giles, I just don't want them to go through as much pain as they have been doing.
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Post by Kamineko »

I recon it needs PR PR PR, well really it needs coverage coverage coverage
How do you think Introversion get their insane monies?
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Post by gilesgoat »

I think one sentence said by Gravy this morning summarizes all :

"we have a distribution partner what we need is a marketing partner".

And that's it really, I think that's what we need to sort out.

About games type it seems now an "affirmed rule" that "XBLA users seems
to be quite not much biased for too unconformal IPs but they
prefer well known IPs".

Basically the "defect" of SG is being "a particular kind of game" not
so "immediately accessible by many".

We live in a world of "super fast communication", this has many
drawbacks of course but I guess the "message" is "anything has to
be fully understood within 10 seconds".

I suppose, I am not really the one able to give "the definitive answer".

As they say let's hope we'll have better luck next time.
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Post by sty »

gilesgoat wrote:I think one sentence said by Gravy this morning summarizes all :

"we have a distribution partner what we need is a marketing partner".
That's brilliantly articulated, and aligns with my thoughts about coverage.
About games type it seems now an "affirmed rule" that "XBLA users seems
to be quite not much biased for too unconformal IPs but they
prefer well known IPs".
I don't think this is true, it might be the safest route, but I doubt it's the most profitable.

I think people just want someone to tell them

"Play this it's great" and they'll wade in with both feet and throw money at you, especially if it is great.

There's two ways of doing this, either spend millions of dollars in a traditional marketing spend, advertising, competitions etc. OR get really creative with the "marketing", and don't forget to be great when delivered (which you are).

People want people they know and trust to recommend stuff they would like to them, best is if it's someone who isn't paid to say great things about a product.

If this is cracked then I can see any amount of Space Giraffe, Vib Ribbon, Katamari, Geometry Wars, Little Big Planet (what I hope it's like), etc. being able to find a niche.
As they say let's hope we'll have better luck next time.
You'll get it, I'm sure, and I also wouldn't write off Space Giraffe just yet, it's just that it didn't satisfy your immediate desires.

You will just need to cast your net wide and take the advice of the most sensible of your advisors, try and dodge the charlatans and snake oil sellers though. Remember also that while the correct thing to do is make the game for yourselves, that way it plays damn fine, you may not be the target audience when it comes to marketing and "packaging" the final product.
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Post by benedictw »

gilesgoat wrote: About games type it seems now an "affirmed rule" that "XBLA users seems
to be quite not much biased for too unconformal IPs but they
prefer well known IPs".
If that meant Gridrunner+++, AOTMC, ROTMC etc that wouldnt be a bad thing. Sty could well be right, is the mini logo too obscure?
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Post by Dio »

sty wrote:
gilesgoat wrote:I think one sentence said by Gravy this morning summarizes all :

"we have a distribution partner what we need is a marketing partner".
That's brilliantly articulated, and aligns with my thoughts about coverage.
Absolutely what I was thinking too. And everything else you said there as well.
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Post by PVB »

Dio wrote:
sty wrote:
gilesgoat wrote:I think one sentence said by Gravy this morning summarizes all :

"we have a distribution partner what we need is a marketing partner".
That's brilliantly articulated, and aligns with my thoughts about coverage.
Absolutely what I was thinking too. And everything else you said there as well.
One thing you (Giles & Jeff) must not do at/after the next game launch, no matter how you feel, is to post on here (or your LJs) replying to negative criticism of you/your games.

Let someone else (a moderator on here perhaps) to do the replies, so we don't get the same problems we had with the launch of SG. :?

Maybe just unplug your net connection for a few weeks, with just a few friends phoning you if some particular issue/problem with the game needs answering?

Just a thought from a concerned friend. :)
Last edited by PVB on Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:40 am 0, edited 1 time in total.
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