Charlie Stross has put up a very interesting blog post about Bechdel's Law. It's a test to do with fiction and you get a pass if.
1. Does it have at least two women in it,
2. Who [at some point] talk to each other,
3. About something besides a man.
It's provoked a lot of interesting discussion on the blog but to be honest I'm not really sure what the point of it is. Although I'm a fan of late era Heinlein where female characters are generally described as "Boy scouts with tits" so I'm probably not the right person to comment
It's an interesting exercise coming up with movies, tv and books that pass and also which ones fail.
Arthur C. Clarke's novels were generally utterly devoid of female characters (or conversation, for that matter!) but he went out on a limb a bit with the Rama books (at least he did after the first one) with some very good female characters.
Prof. Tolkien qualifies as an Epic Fail, though, I think
Funnily enough I was talking about another Law just yesterday with reference to Heinlein.
It went as follows:
Incidentally, if you know about Godwin's Law, Sircar's Corollary of Godwin's Law states that once Heinlein is brought up during online debates, "Nazis or Hitler are mentioned within three days."
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Good rule of thumb - if the Rev hates it, it's ace - Yak
Rib wrote:Incidentally, if you know about Godwin's Law, Sircar's Corollary of Godwin's Law states that once Heinlein is brought up during online debates, "Nazis or Hitler are mentioned within three days."
Rib wrote:Funnily enough I was talking about another Law just yesterday with reference to Heinlein.
It went as follows:
Incidentally, if you know about Godwin's Law, Sircar's Corollary of Godwin's Law states that once Heinlein is brought up during online debates, "Nazis or Hitler are mentioned within three days."
Whatever you think Heinlein's views on race were, he wrote about it, so presumably he had some:
WiteWulf wrote:Arthur C. Clarke's novels were generally utterly devoid of female characters (or conversation, for that matter!) but he went out on a limb a bit with the Rama books (at least he did after the first one) with some very good female characters.
A lot of his novels were set on the moon and we're still waiting for the first woman on the moon. Space exploration is still largely done by men, so if your SF is realistic and near future like his then there will be very few women.
A lot of SF, and genre fiction in general, is the story/journey of one person. Almost all conversations are with that person, so if that person's male then the law will very often be broken. You can say stories like this are predictable and formulaic, but that's what works. You can also ask why there are so few female leads in SF, but the same is true of all sorts of fiction - just look at Hollywood.
Arthur C. Clarke's novels were generally utterly devoid of female characters (or conversation, for that matter!) but he went out on a limb a bit with the Rama books (at least he did after the first one) with some very good female characters.
Prof. Tolkien qualifies as an Epic Fail, though, I think
Rama 2 onwards was co-written with Gentry Lee who was probably responsible for the more fleshed out characters. Lovely books in general, but I still prefer the first one. Rendezvous is supposedly going to be made into a movie in the near future. Heres hoping they do it justice...
CharlieF wrote: Rendezvous is supposedly going to be made into a movie in the near future. Heres hoping they do it justice...
Last I heard (and this must have been a good 10 years ago) someone was doing a CGI version and Morgan Freeman was doing one of the voices. There was even a website around at one point with concept art on it.
Bechdel's Second Law (which was introduced after she discovered anime) is exactly the same as the first law, but adds that the two female characters in question must also not kiss each other (or sexually interact with each other with tentacles, giant penis shaped clitori, etc..) to 'pass'.
Arthur C. Clarke's novels were generally utterly devoid of female characters (or conversation, for that matter!) but he went out on a limb a bit with the Rama books (at least he did after the first one) with some very good female characters.
Rama 2 onwards was co-written with Gentry Lee who was probably responsible for the more fleshed out characters. Lovely books in general, but I still prefer the first one.
Lee wrote the three "sequel" books almost in their entirety, with Clarke only having an editorial input.
I enjoyed the books, but they really weren't a patch on the first. They were quite depressing, I found, what with the rather poor (and probably accurate) portrayal of a human colony in the midst of alien cultures. You could tell it wasn't clarke, there was far too much religion in it, especially the bloody awful pseudo-ending of the fourth book.
"Oh dear lord, I slightly soiled myself. Oxfam won’t be pleased."
Yeah, I wouldn't recommend the sequels to anybody. I felt they spoiled the sense of mystery and wonder from the original, and I thought the ending of the series was pitiful.
"I am a very considerate person. If I want to go out all night on my miniature golf course and shoot lizards, well, no reason to keep the neighbours awake..."
Just to go back to the original topic for a moment...
What am I supposed to do with this test? Am I now no longer meant to read the books I enjoy, or watch the films I like because they've failed? Or do I have to wait until I know if a future book by one of my favourite authors passes before I can buy?
"Oh dear lord, I slightly soiled myself. Oxfam won’t be pleased."
I'm not sure but here's what Charles Stross has to say
Sorry to keep banging on about this, but as the comment thread on my last blog entry richly demonstrates, there are still quite a lot of men out there (and reading this blog) who Don't Get It with respect to their own privileged status — fish who aren't aware of the water they swim through.
(And besides, I currently feel a strong need to demonstrate that not all SF writers are reading from the same hymn book as Orson Scott Card.)
So I'm guessing if you carry on reading stuff that fails you're doing your part to keep women in their second class position.
