Bechdel's Law

[toxibunny]

Although I'm a fan of late era Heinlein where female characters are generally described as "Boy scouts with tits" so I'm probably not the right person to comment

Me too, phwoarr!


I used to deliberately pick at least one book by a female author every time I went to the library, but gave it up as being way too patronising. Popco was a good find though. afterwards.

[Gorecki]

What am I supposed to do with this test?

Think about it.

That's all.

It's a source of constant amazement (to me at least) that white, middle class, heterosexual males don't seem to realise just how much the world bends to our tastes and predilections. And further more are so resistant to anything that doesn't pander to those tastes.

There's nothing wrong with white, male-centric art. The Dark Knight is my favourite film of the year and that only features one female character

Spoiler: show

who dies.

It's the negative effect of sidelining everything else that's the problem. Look at any '100 Greatest Movies/Albums/Books' poll and play spot the woman, gay, non-white guy. Notice how narrow the range is? Wouldn't it be nice to have a bit more variety?

Think about it.

[teamonkey]

Spoiler: show

who gets fridged.

Fixed.

[beerman]

It's a source of constant amazement (to me at least) that white, middle class, heterosexual males don't seem to realise just how much the world bends to our tastes and predilections. And further more are so resistant to anything that doesn't pander to those tastes.

Hey, it's not our fault we like all the cool stuff

[fro]

Although I'm a fan of late era Heinlein where female characters are generally described as "Boy scouts with tits" so I'm probably not the right person to comment

Me too, phwoarr!


I used to deliberately pick at least one book by a female author every time I went to the library, but gave it up as being way too patronising. Popco was a good find though. afterwards.

You've just made me realise that I've only got one book written by a woman. It feels like there's something wrong with that.

[piku]

Charlie Stross has put up a very interesting blog post about Bechdel's Law. It's a test to do with fiction and you get a pass if.

I misread 'fiction' as friction and then, when I read the next bit ...

1. Does it have at least two women in it,

2. Who [at some point] talk to each other,

3. About something besides a man.

My mind went off completely down the wrong tracks

In the 2001 film there's some women sat around talking in the space station, isn't there?

[Sledge]

3. About something besides a man.

I dunno... sounds a bit sexist.

[guythp]

The strip popularized what is now known as the Bechdel test, also known as the Bechdel/Wallace test, Bechdel's law, and the Mo Movie Measure. Bechdel credits her friend Liz Wallace for the test, which appears in a 1985 strip entitled "The Rule", in which a character says that she only watches a movie if it satisfies the following requirements:

1. It has to have at least two women in it,
2. Who talk to each other,
3. About something besides a man.

= Evil Dead II. My favourite film!

[betamax]

Sounds like someone with way to much thinking time on her hands and a truly shit movie collection.

[nyarla]

A lot of William Gibson's books pass the Bechdel test iirc...(just finished reading Spook Country). To me (a male) his female characters often feel realistic, and are quite varied... anyone else have an opinion on that?

I have an extensive collection of Agatha Christie books, but not much by any other female authors...
Though I did think China Mieville was female for a long time.

[gumboot]

I tried to think through Terminator. The first scene I thought of was where Sarah was talking to a friend of hers about this guy trying to kill her. I'm not sure I even remember the movie correctly, but if I do, would that count? [mock-spoiler]It was actually a robot, after all.[/mock-spoiler]

[beerman]

Amusingly, Zombie Strippers passes with flying colours

[Kamineko]

All of the characters in Azumanga Daioh are female, and they almost never talk about men. (The teachers sometimes take the mickey out of each other, that's about it)

Therefore Azumanga Daioh gets 1,000,000 points.

[zip accident]

All of the characters in Azumanga Daioh are female, and they almost never talk about men. (The teachers sometimes take the mickey out of each other, that's about it)

Therefore Azumanga Daioh gets 1,000,000 points.

Hm, interesting point.

Presumably, the law ought to be, there are at least two characters of each gender, and the characters of the same gender talk, without that talking being about the gender they are erotically interested in. I'm not sure there are that many speaking parts in most films.

[juice]

Bechdel's Second Law (which was introduced after she discovered anime) is exactly the same as the first law, but adds that the two female characters in question must also not kiss each other (or sexually interact with each other with tentacles, giant penis shaped clitori, etc..) to 'pass'.

Azumanga Daioh, Gunslinger Girl, Noir, Noein, Bubblegum Crisis, Hellsing, Neon Genesis Evangelion: I wouldn't claim these all pass the test with flying colours (e.g. Azumanga Daioh has the girl who has a crush on Sakaki), but they all include strong female characters rather than fan-service caricatures, which I think is meant to be the point.

Past there, this seems a bit like complaining water is wet. Anime and Manga is generally aimed at teenage males (give or take the biishonen stuff: has Bechdel bother to flag any of that up?) and hollywood is generally aimed at WASP males. It's the equivalent of walking into a clothes shop and complaining that the men's section contains shirts and ties.

I guess the rule is meant to be highlighting a more fundamental issue of social imbalance, but things have changed a lot since 1985, when the rule was first formulated.

I'm also not convinced that movies are the best thing to point at: admittedly, movie plots follow very well-worn channels (e.g. most Hollywood action pap ends with the male lead and female lead walking off hand-in-hand, with everyone else dead or abandoned), but I think there's more to this than male chauvanism: stories generally need protector/protectee (or dominant/submissive in non-action films) roles, and in anything involving physical threats, men generally fall into the protector role by dint of being physically bigger and stronger. There's also the need for the audience to identify with the character(s) and their responses and for the audience to leave the cinema feeling satisfied.

Movies are in essence a reflection of society: changing them won't change society. Instead, consumers will vote with their feet and watch something which better conforms to their needs and expectations. Bechdel's rule is better used as a guide to the current state of society, rather than an attempt to improve it.