Gridrunner Revolution OUT NOW }:-).

[axel000]

I never expected to see such a display of snobbery on Yak Yak but there you go.

[KlaxonCow]

The language seems to be gradually falling apart at the seams since the advent of the web and mobile phones.

Based on what evidence?

Just to be clear, you're asserting that the widespread adoption and use of a text-only medium - texting - and a still majority text medium - the Internet - providing people, who otherwise used to read very little and write near nothing, with routine and constant practice at reading and writing, as a now increasingly primary means of daily social interaction, has been a bad thing for literacy?

Nonsense. Utter nonsense.

Nothing's been better for the promotion of literacy since the invention of the Gutenberg press, and the written word has never been more integral to more people's lives at any time in human history.

Does this mean you won't bump into people with poor literary skills?

Well, of course not. It means that you'll likely bump into them much more often - because now people all over the world, who'd otherwise have been effective strangers to the written word in their daily lives, are getting online and getting involved. Which is a very good thing, because the only real way you get better at reading and writing, is to do more reading and writing.

Hey, even if it's only 160 characters of an SMS or tweet here and there, that's 160 characters more than they would have done without the technology.

Without mobile phones and the Internet, what would people have done instead? A phone call won't help literacy. They wouldn't have sent letters to each other with such frequency - snail mail doesn't go fast enough to allow that. They wouldn't just have communicated differently, they'd have also simply communicated less.

And while we could kid ourselves that, ideally, they'd pull down a book from their illustrious book shelf to read instead, what would actually happen is that they'd park themselves in front of the TV (or maybe listen to the radio), which doesn't really provide any useful assistance to literacy skills at all.

Indeed, there is an implicit negative correlation that someone who isn't too good at literacy is more likely to be resistant to reading books - despite, ironically, being the ones who'd benefit most from doing so. Someone who already has good literacy skills very likely needs no encouragement to read and write, because it's the fact that they already do which has forged their excellent literacy.

It's because more people are actively involved in the daily act of using the written word, that you bump into more folks more often with less than stellar literary prowess. Whereas, previously, the written word was filtered through newspapers, magazines and books, by authors who are inherently chosen on merit of their good writing skills, edited and proof-read by expert eyes, before publication.

You're not comparing like-for-like and that'll easily fool you.

On the contrary, the Internet and texting are not "damaging" literacy, they're substantially encouraging it like pretty much nothing ever has before, integrating it as part of what is increasingly everyone's daily routine - and the Internet / texting doesn't just target reading, as books do, it equally targets writing, because it's interactive. Certainly, the general mass of the people has probably never written as much ever before.

What you should be worried about is those poor folks who are genuinely illiterate for whom the increasing use of the online world represents a serious issue. Think about it - most journeys on the web begin at the Google search prompt. If you can't read or write, then that's you fallen at the very first hurdle. Because you can't get anywhere on your own without making a search or typing in a URL.

And SMS abbreviations - which offend many - are just that. Abbreviations. You have a 160 character limit. Typing with your thumbs is a pain in the arse, that I hardly blame folks for trying to get it over with as soon as they possibly can.

Oh, yeah, sure. You'll get that news report of the one idiotic kid who used a text abbreviation in his school work and then act as if this one idiot - because there's always one idiot in every crowd - represents what all 12.1 million children in the UK are also all doing.

But, hey, if you enjoy being "morally outraged" at "the youth of today" then feel free to ignore all of the research evidence, where kids have been explicitly tested and almost all of them realise what is and isn't an SMS abbreviation, and unanimously all know that such things are totally inappropriate for school work.

Mind you, why are we picking on kids anyway?

Sorry, but the actual figures annihilate that myth too - most texts are sent by adults. This really isn't surprising when you stop being "morally outraged" long enough to remember that there simply are more adults than children (as just mentioned, the ONS has it that there are around 12.1 million minors in the UK and the total population is around 65 million).

Really, it's all reactionary nonsense, because folks love a good "moral outrage" about "the youth of today" or "the fear of change" or whatever they can get their hands on to moan about this week. None of it is actually true.

It has the same validity as those other nutters who would contend that because you shoot bullets and there's flashing colours in Gridrunner Revolution, that you'll obviously be inevitably "hypnotised" into being a serial killer by this "violent video game" and all the flashing colours is, no doubt, some subliminal means to make all of our children drug addicts.

Of course, reverse the logic and, as billions of people worldwide regularly play violent video games and watch violent movies, then, by their warped logic, half the people on the planet should all be serial killers by now. In actual fact, serial killing is ridiculously rare - but, sure, it understandably grabs all the headlines, so creates the false impression that "everyone's at it" - so that instantly ruins their logic in one fell swoop, and the infinitely far more plausible explanation that such people are simply mentally insane seems to fit the facts better, doesn't it?

The Internet is 99.999% good - but, hey, it's only human to find that 0.001% bad in it (because it'll always be there, as nothing, of course, is ever perfect) and then act like "the End Times" are just around the corner.

Relax. You're quite safe here. Trust me.

[Harlequin]

I never expected to see such a display of snobbery on Yak Yak but there you go.

Perhaps you have been reading the wrong threads these past few years.

[PVB]

I never expected to see such a display of snobbery on Yak Yak but there you go.

Perhaps you have been reading the wrong threads these past few years.

[bcass]

The language seems to be gradually falling apart at the seams since the advent of the web and mobile phones.

Based on what evidence?

Based on my interactions with children/teenagers. Does anyone in their 30s really think that educatonal standards are better these days? Have you ever seen the Jeremy Kyle show? There is an ever-growing underclass developing in this country that is becoming harder and harder to ignore/avoid.

Maybe a mod could split this talk into a new thread in Bleatings. It's not really GRR related anymore is it?

[Portland]

[bcass]

It's a fare-cop guv!

But, at the very least, this thread has been educatonal.

[KlaxonCow]

Does anyone in their 30s really think that educatonal standards are better these days?

Probably not.

But what does that have to do with "the advent of the web and mobile phones" anyway?

Have you ever seen the Jeremy Kyle show?

No, I watch "Mastermind", "University Challenge", BBC4's "Only Connect" and "Newsnight Review".

Erroneously taking these TV shows and presuming them to be accurately representative of every single person in the UK, I'm greatly satisfied that everyone is a genius and highly cultured - as this must mean the educational system is a resounding success.

If you don't what the term "confirmation bias" is, then I suggest you look it up.

You're honestly not so naive to think that "the Jeremy Kyle show" and others of its ilk are genuine "advice" programmes, are you?

They're freak shows. They're supposed to be freak shows. It is by design. If you're not a freak then you don't get on the show, just as if you're not a brainy bastard then you won't qualify to get on "Mastermind". You can't watch a freak show and then be genuinely shocked and surprised to find that there are freaks on it.

This bloke says it far better than I ever could:

There is an ever-growing underclass developing in this country that is becoming harder and harder to ignore/avoid.

Indeed. But how does ignoring or avoiding them solve anything?

Oh, wait. I get it. "Out of sight, out of mind", is it?

And then you honestly wonder why there's an ever-growing problem?

[bcass]

Does anyone in their 30s really think that educatonal standards are better these days?

Probably not.

But what does that have to do with "the advent of the web and mobile phones" anyway?

Have you seen the type of language used by people (especially kids) in mobile texts, on facebook etc? Do you think that form of English is conducive to the language?

Have you ever seen the Jeremy Kyle show?

No, I watch "Mastermind", "University Challenge", BBC4's "Only Connect" and "Newsnight Review".

Oh, go you! I asked if you'd ever seen it, not if you watch it. I don't watch it either, but from what I've seen, well, it's a pretty sad reflection of our society at this point in time.

Erroneously taking these TV shows and presuming them to be accurately representative of every single person in the UK, I'm greatly satisfied that everyone is a genius and highly cultured - as this must mean the educational system is a resounding success.

Where exactly did I say that the show was representative of every single person in the UK? The answer is, I didn't.

You're honestly not so naive to think that "the Jeremy Kyle show" and others of its ilk are genuine "advice" programmes, are you?

I never indicated that it was. It doesn't matter what type of programme it is, it's the type of people being masqueraded on it that worry me.

There is an ever-growing underclass developing in this country that is becoming harder and harder to ignore/avoid.

Indeed. But how does ignoring or avoiding them solve anything?

Oh, wait. I get it. "Out of sight, out of mind", is it?

And then you honestly wonder why there's an ever-growing problem?

I wasn't suggesting people ignore it, or that anything would be gained by ignoring it. A large part of our society have been ignoring it though, which ultimately, will end up being detrimental to us all.

[Portland]

Language evolves through use. As person to person written communication has increased vastly in the past 20 to 30 years, it's no great shock that the speed that written language has evolved has accelerated greatly with it.

I used to actually exchange letters with a mate of mine who stayed in Manchester allegedly to study (but really to eat regularly at Abduls, still one of the best kebab houses I'm aware of) whilst I pootled off to the delights of the Carfax chippy, Heroes sandwich bar and the bounty of the Co-op on Cornmarket. I'd like to think our letters had deep and meaningful content, but we'd both be kidding ourselves. About the only thing we accomplished (apart from getting shit off our chests) was a fairly pointless escalation in the "longest gramatically correct sentance which remained even vaguely connected to the ongoing snail mail conversation" competition. Assuming Steve wrote a letter on a Monday and posted it on Tuesday, it probably wouldn't reach my pigeonhole at the lodge until Friday (First class? Fuck that!) so I'd probably open it on Saturday. A week turnaround each way, assuming we replied to each other immediately. Scale this up somewhat for the letters we both exchanged with another mate of ours who went to do a chunk of voluntary work in Kenya before starting her studies.

Compare that to when we both got access to external email. All of a sudden the lag between communications was however long it was until the other person went to their IT centre to log on to chase their JANET queries and poll their mail. Then it was home and work based mail and the potential turnaround dropped even further. Next was texting (although neither of us were particularly arsed about that) then smartphones with push mail... you can see where I'm going with this.

Each individual communication tended to become shorter, as in all honesty, you've not usually got time to type the equivalent of a five sheet letter in a quick email. I miss my laggy paper based chats with Steve, but life and communication have both sped up.

Personally I'm a bit of a spelling and grammer fiend, but am not adverse to using relevant acronyms and abbreviations where appropriate. I still don't use many txt spk abbreviations, as I send fairly few texts compared to some of the scary arse levels of texting I see from some people, so I tend to type most of them out in "longhand" and don't really care if I get hit for 2 text charges, as I never get anywhere near my monthly limit. (Feel free to mock spelling or grammar errors in this post, I'm really watching the repeat of life and typing is very much secondary.)

Many heavily abbreviated texts make fuck all sense to me, but then again, some of the mails I send at work tend to read like scientific abstracts and would make no sense to a bod doing their GCSE's this year. The way I look at it, communication should be appropriate to the audience and medium. An enquiry regarding our drive through breakfast requirements (if any) from a lass in our office might simply be "McD?" which is fine as we know what she means. Mails I bounce backwards and forwards with the comms team bods of various councils tend to be in a mixture of jargon and informal English - no need for strictly formal business terminology, as we've been in communcation with each other for about ten years. A proposal for an EVPN solution from one of our sales peeps to a potential customer would be in very formal language.

What's on academic curriculae these days is a separate issue to how kids communicate. You can also further distinguish verbal and written language. Unless the various kids I hear on the street, in shops, on trains etc are highly unrepresentative, they simply seem to use a chunk of contemporary slang, but not much in the way of txt spk.

Anyway, just wibbling now. Time for the last before bed I think.

[Foozwah]

Ah, only on YakYak... a forum based (at least in theory) around fandom/playing of Llamasoft games, where the main thread about the newest release from said creator(s) gets completely hijacked/swamped with yet another largely pointless argument/cock-waving exercise so far off-topic as to be in another universe.

You must all be very proud.

[bcass]

To be fair, we did ask for the topic to be split early on. No harm in topics deviating.

[zip accident]

Ah, only on YakYak... a forum based (at least in theory) around fandom/playing of Llamasoft games, where the main thread about the newest release from said creator(s) gets completely hijacked/swamped with yet another largely pointless argument/cock-waving exercise so far off-topic as to be in another universe.

You must all be very proud.

And another very fine piece of willy-waving arrives in the thread.

As, I suppose is this.

[Dungeon-Dave]

To be fair, we did ask for the topic to be split early on. No harm in topics deviating.

@mods: any chance this thread can now be moved into the GR forum?

What was an an announcement has now become a running discussion. Since it's common across every forum, any new post in here causes *every* forum to show "unread posts".

Move to the more appropriate place if you will, please. Ta!

[Dungeon-Dave]

Thanks for whoever did this - speedy, too!

/me butts out now...