X-Factor and Autotune

[phattslagg]

Timing has nothing to do with it. It doesn't correct rhythm, only pitch. Autotune can be set to be as extreme (think cher) or as unnoticable an effect as you'd like. The effectiveness of the effect could be controlled in real-time by an engineer easily.

Of course timing has everything to do with it - if the note starts or ends slightly before or after the expected place, there will be an offset between the pitch being attempted by the singer and the pitch expected by the engineer manning the autotune. It would be completely impractical, and anything but 'easy'.

[KidQuaalude]

As I mentioned before, timing doesn't come into it. If they are not playing a melody into Autotune (which is not mandatory), the pitch correction will tune to the nearest neighbour in the scale. If the key is C major for example (notes CDEFGAB) and that person sings a bit sharp, it will auto-tune the pitch to C, if nearer D, it will be pitched to D. There does not have to be a melody played into Autotune for it to work, setting a key is enough. It also can be set to be much more natural-sounding (not immediately pitching to the correct note).

[phattslagg]

Fair enough, but I don't believe that this can be applied live in a way that will sound anything other than obvious. I understand how it can easily be applied post-production, but unless you are actually deliberately going after that horrible pseudo-vocoder effect that seems so popular atm, it wouldn't be in the interests of the production team to try this in a live show.

[gravy]

It would be perfectly easy for them to use Autotune in real-time. You can set the key of the song, you do not need to send Autotune midi-notes for it to work (it is an option, though)

It's pretty obvious it's post production. One of the acts were a duo and they autotuned only one of the singers. It allowed them to force the girl singer to dump her partner.

As for the practicalities of realtime, what if the song has a change? There's no way you can work out what the right note someone should be singing at any random point in a song from one piece of information, the song's key. On top of that there's no downside to them doing it in post either where it'd be a lot easier to get a better sounding result.

[Muttley]

It would be perfectly easy for them to use Autotune in real-time. You can set the key of the song, you do not need to send Autotune midi-notes for it to work (it is an option, though)

It's pretty obvious it's post production. One of the acts were a duo and they autotuned only one of the singers. It allowed them to force the girl singer to dump her partner.

As for the practicalities of realtime, what if the song has a change? There's no way you can work out what the right note someone should be singing at any random point in a song from one piece of information, the song's key. On top of that there's no downside to them doing it in post either where it'd be a lot easier to get a better sounding result.

Not at all obvious to me.

You can process different mics seperately, with different settings if required, it's a piece of piss. How do you think half these boy bands perform live ever.

It's also simple to handle key changes, not that they're that common in the type of music most x-factor contestants sing anyway (50 fucking different fucking attempts at fucking Unchained fucking Melody usually isn't it? ), all you need to know is the source material a little in advance (you can be damn sure that the material is known in intimate detail long before any of them get near a stage), and program the key and any changes.

[gravy]

The process is they bring in a CD with some songs on which a preference for what one they want to sing. Sometimes one of the judges doesn't like the song they chose and ask them to do a last minute change and play a back up song. It happened in the last show, Simon didn't like the chosen song and said have you got another. The singer waved off stage to whoever was hitting play on the CD and ask them to play track 6.

On top of that there are tens of thousands of people turn up for auditions all with their own CDs. They get filtered down to the ones who'll go in front of the TV cameras.

So the system for real time would be:

Get every CD of the the people you're going to put on TV
Make sure you've right key / scale for everyone
Checked for any key changes
Have someone operating the autotune during the song making sure it works okay

Phew! That's hard work! You could make your job a lot easier by doing it in post production but you'd have the serious disadvantage of er.... nothing at all.

So the argument for realtime is that it's possible (yep it is) and the argument against is it'd be a stupid waste of time that'd offer no benefit.

I know what my money's on. It'll all come out in the next few weeks. The papers love this sort of "scandal" so I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot more on it over the next few weeks.

[Ollie]

Big fuss about it in the paper this morning with the production team claiming some bollocks about the autotune only being applied at a 'post-production' stage to make the whole thing better for the television viewers, and that 'of course' the audience in the theatre and the judges got to hear the raw unprocessed vocals at the judging stage..

Yeah, right.

Misses the point, at any rate. People tuning in to see a talent competition want to see and hear talent (or, to a large degree with the X Factor, lack of it). If the contestants aren't talented enough for their performances to stand up on telly without being wanked around with Autotune, how the fuck are they talented enough to be put through to the next round? There's little doubt in my mind this has been done because there was quite a lot of complaining online last year about people being put through who weren't singing in tune. It's just a shame they got a sound engineer who didn't have a clue about how to apply the effect with the slightest amount of subtlety.

[sack]

It's not the artistic merits that I don't like - the really cynical way they apply it to one of a pair of singers who were initially friends to create a bigger difference between them and put pressure on their friendship for the sake of 30 seconds of onscreen drama just makes them a bunch of cunts really.

[Dungeon-Dave]

Taking a live audio feed and adjusting it on the fly would require the software to be instantly aware of the note being performed and what note should be present in it's place at every single split second of the performance.

They bring their own CDs in though which'd make it impractical to do it realtime.

It would be a nightmare for them to do it realtime.

Bit late to the party, but... not quite correct. This is presupposing that the feed from the original source is broadcast immediately to the listeners.

It is possible to introduce a delay into the sound feed so that the autotuner can listen to the live sound but the audience+singer[1] receive (and respond to) the delayed sound, giving autotune the ability to "predict". The delay only needs to be long enough for autotune to detect which pitch it should be at that particular point in time.

(I saw a similar demo where someone added a half-second delay to a mic but dropped the live sound to 30% volume, leaving the delayed sound at 100%. You heard an "echo" in advance of the speech - nice creepy effect)

[1] I use the term loosely. They *are* singing - just not in time/tune/etc

[Zoot]

The process is they bring in a CD with some songs on which a preference for what one they want to sing. Sometimes one of the judges doesn't like the song they chose and ask them to do a last minute change and play a back up song. It happened in the last show, Simon didn't like the chosen song and said have you got another. The singer waved off stage to whoever was hitting play on the CD and ask them to play track 6.

On top of that there are tens of thousands of people turn up for auditions all with their own CDs. They get filtered down to the ones who'll go in front of the TV cameras.

So the system for real time would be:

Get every CD of the the people you're going to put on TV
Make sure you've right key / scale for everyone
Checked for any key changes
Have someone operating the autotune during the song making sure it works okay

Phew! That's hard work! You could make your job a lot easier by doing it in post production but you'd have the serious disadvantage of er.... nothing at all.

So the argument for realtime is that it's possible (yep it is) and the argument against is it'd be a stupid waste of time that'd offer no benefit.

I know what my money's on. It'll all come out in the next few weeks. The papers love this sort of "scandal" so I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot more on it over the next few weeks.

Just exactly what he said.

Anyway, we had this discussionlast year

[Zoot]

Taking a live audio feed and adjusting it on the fly would require the software to be instantly aware of the note being performed and what note should be present in it's place at every single split second of the performance.

They bring their own CDs in though which'd make it impractical to do it realtime.

It would be a nightmare for them to do it realtime.

Bit late to the party, but... not quite correct. This is presupposing that the feed from the original source is broadcast immediately to the listeners.

It is possible to introduce a delay into the sound feed so that the autotuner can listen to the live sound but the audience+singer[1] receive (and respond to) the delayed sound, giving autotune the ability to "predict". The delay only needs to be long enough for autotune to detect which pitch it should be at that particular point in time.

(I saw a similar demo where someone added a half-second delay to a mic but dropped the live sound to 30% volume, leaving the delayed sound at 100%. You heard an "echo" in advance of the speech - nice creepy effect)

[1] I use the term loosely. They *are* singing - just not in time/tune/etc

Autotuning in live situaions is okay as long as the notes being corrected/corrected too are diatonic. As soon as you start introducing chromatic notes i.e. notes that Autotune wouldn't expect to be in the scale, it is not so easy, or more accurate. It's not that it can't be done, just that it is harder and, as Gravy says, just not worth it.

In any case, it is extremely likely that the feed that the audience hear is not the same feed that is being recorded for the TV show, so it adds a whole new level of complexity. In any case, the audience get excited at any act that isn't completely shit, so a few notes here and there wouldn't make a difference in a big echoey hall.

[merman]

I think the key to remember is that we are currently talking about the auditions, which are not "live" anyway...

...and whatever the controversy, it's got people talking about the show again. Which is what ITV and its advertisers want.

[RiK]

It's not the artistic merits that I don't like - the really cynical way they apply it to one of a pair of singers who were initially friends to create a bigger difference betwNeen them and put pressure on their friendship for the sake of 30 seconds of onscreen drama just makes them a bunch of cunts really.

Well yeah, but that bloke was completely shit and danced like a spaz. He was making me cringe and I did actually feel for the poor girl having to share a stage with him.

[Dungeon-Dave]

...and whatever the controversy, it's got people talking about the show again. Which is what ITV and its advertisers want.

I'd have thought ITV and advertisers would have wanted people to *watch* the show, in the vain hope that people would spend money voting for acts and buying products being advertised.

Call me cynical, but I don't see how discussing audio-modulating technology helps ITV's advertisers.

[Dio]

There's no such thing as bad publicity.