Politics Thread!

[pogo]

He didn't refuse. He said what he said repeatedly, and apologised for it. The police version was at odds with that though.

But it's pretty clear now
* The police made their version up
* Someone at the police then leaked their false report
* The member of the public who wrote to complain wasn't there and is a serving police officer
* The Police Federation's claim that he never gave his version of it is false

Watch the report. It has CCTV footage, the recording of the telephone conversation with the 'member of the public', and the recording of the meeting where Mitchell supposedly refused to give his version. Basically it all support's Mitchell's version of events 100%

http://www.channel4.com/news/andrew-mit ... ing-street

[merman]

Borrowing up again, money paid to support the banks up again, debt as a percentage of GDP increasing. We still owe as much as when the Coalition took over. And even with more people in work, there are still a huge number of unfilled vacancies out there. With the figures expected to show the economy shrank in the last quarter of 2012, aren't you glad Osborne is still Chancellor?

Then you add in Government departments not achieving the planned savings while they force councils to cut back spending left, right and centre.

Cameron has been full of hot air this week, hasn't he? Wanting to fight a generational war in North Africa when they haven't finished the job in Afghanistan, offering support (but not boots on the ground) as France throws its imperial weight around in Mali, and then announcing reserve troops will have to take up the slack from another round of job cuts in front-line forces - 5,000 more this time.

And to cap it all, his postponed speech on Europe offered (surprise, surprise) an in/out referendum on Europe by 2018 if the Conservatives win the next election. This is the man who pressed Labour multiple times to offer a referendum on treaty changes and then has dodged the issue constantly for nearly three years when he had the chance to do something about it. Nothing about the process will help Britain or make it great again. How he had the gall to say he supported EU membership and would campaign for us to stay in is beyond me.

[Dio]

Not that he would answer the question as to if he'd campaign to go out if there wasn't treaty change. Not from Nick Robinson, not from the Ed Miller Band.

I'm just baffled as to why he's done this now. If it's simply to head off UKIP, it would be best done at manifesto time, as late as possible, to avoid the risk of deterring inward investment. So all you're left with is either a lazy sop to his own party or an attempt to bully Europe in the oncoming negotiations by saying he's made a promise and they'd better bloody well cooperate or we'll be off. Is there any explanation that isn't cowardice or bluster?

[Dio]

Ha - Blair notes Cameron's stance reminds him of Cleavon Little in Blazing Saddles pointing a gun to his own head and saying "If anybody moves, I'll shoot!"

[PFVA]

Cameron has been full of hot air this week, hasn't he? Wanting to fight a generational war in North Africa when they haven't finished the job in Afghanistan, offering support (but not boots on the ground) as France throws its imperial weight around in Mali, and then announcing reserve troops will have to take up the slack from another round of job cuts in front-line forces - 5,000 more this time.

France is getting a few support offers. Mali has uranium besides natural gas and other staff. There is a worry about fundamentalist rebels controlling uranium reserves.

[pogo]

I'm just baffled as to why he's done this now. If it's simply to head off UKIP, it would be best done at manifesto time, as late as possible, to avoid the risk of deterring inward investment. So all you're left with is either a lazy sop to his own party or an attempt to bully Europe in the oncoming negotiations by saying he's made a promise and they'd better bloody well cooperate or we'll be off. Is there any explanation that isn't cowardice or bluster?

In some ways he's doing what's right. The EU desperately needs reforming, and the British model is one of those out there. Amid all the gloom we've falling unemployment and more people in work than ever before. We still attract disproportionately more investment, despite the government's misguided efforts many people want to come and live and work and study here. Britain's not the only model for EU reform but they need to do something.

He has two problems though. First much of the EU doesn't see it that way. They think the crisis was caused by lazy Greeks/Spaniards/Portuguese/Irish living beyond their means. Or they think it was caused by fat cat bankers who've stolen all the money. Or they think the problem is overblown and will sort itself out. Except none of these is right and none offers a way out of the crisis. They see Britain's intervention as self-serving and a waste of time.

The other problem is there's no way for Cameron to get what he wants, or at least no plausible way. The EU tends to create things by treaty which require often years of careful negotiation between all countries. And to modify previous treaties requires a new one. Britain wants the ability to opt out of more, which will require a treaty change and so a new treaty. Even if he could persuade all the other countries it could be voted down by France.

It may not matter though. Europe's changed so much since the election, it will change still more before the next one, for better or worse. It could be reforms are enacted that make the EU into the flexible, dynamic and fairer institution it needs to be, better matching Britain's aims. Or it could collapse into separate states with new currencies and borders so there's no longer anything meaningful to negotiate with.

[Rhythm]

Why does it need reforming? All I ever see is Britain constantly railing against "Brussels" without having much by way of sound reasoning behind it.

Cameron's created a no-win situation here. He gets reform for Britain and suddenly the underpinning of the EU falls apart, or he gets us out and we go from being a major part of a major market to.... fuck all. The choice isn't "in or out" at all, it's "in wit some major undermining terms" or "out". Where's the option for those of us who are happy as things are?

[jawafour]

...We still owe as much as when the Coalition took over...

I also thought that, but in the current Tory party political broadcast, Cameron claims that the overall debt had been reduced by 25% since the new government commenced. This must equate to *huge* savings... is it true?

[gravy]

He claims the defecit has reduced which is true.

The defecit is the gap between what the country brings in every year and what it spends.

We still have a defecit so our debt is still increasing. The rate it's increasing at is lower.

That sort of double talk is a great example of what a bunch of cunts they are.

EDIT: Here's the debt stats
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_na ... chart.html

[TFO]

All the referendum bollocks has served just two purposes:

1. Keep the loony right of his party quiet for a bit, and,
2. In one fell swoop kill off UKIP - a party to whom the Tories have lost voters

This is pure electioneering. Very dangerous electioneering.

[Wudzi]

A comparison with what has happened on this side of the Atlantic is illuminating. For the purposes of the natural experiment, the U.S. can be thought of as the control. In adopting a fiscal stimulus of gradually declining magnitude over the past four years, the Obama Administration has administered what was, until recently, the standard medicine for a sick economy.
As one would have expected on the basis of the textbooks, the American economy, while hardly racing ahead, has fared considerably better than its British counterpart. Between 2010 and 2012, G.D.P. growth here has averaged about 2.1 per cent. For the U.K., the figure is 0.9 per cent. What may be more surprising—at least to those of you who have been listening to the deficit hawks—is that the United States, while sticking with Keynesian stimulus policies, has also managed to bring down the size of its deficit, relative to G.D.P., almost as rapidly as hairshirt Britain has. Back in 2009, at the depths of the recession, both countries had double-digit deficits. Today, the U.S. deficit stands at about seven per cent of G.D.P., and the British deficit is about five per cent of G.D.P. But with the U.S. growing faster than the U.K,. the gap is set to close. Next year, according to the latest forecasts from the Congressional Budget Office and the O.B.R., the U.S. deficit will be considerably smaller than the U.K. deficit: four per cent of G.D.P. compared to six per cent.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/c ... -work.html

[Wudzi]

All the referendum bollocks has served just two purposes:

1. Keep the loony right of his party quiet for a bit, and,
2. In one fell swoop kill off UKIP - a party to whom the Tories have lost voters

This is pure electioneering. Very dangerous electioneering.

Yes for the Tories it's very good. The only problem is he's now going to have to convince the public to vote to stay in.

It would be interesting to see what Labour do. If their policy is to not hold a referendum, that's a clear policy difference between them and the Tories. If they were to win the next election, they'd have a strong claim for a mandate to remain in Europe and not hold a referendum.

[seibu]

He didn't refuse. He said what he said repeatedly, and apologised for it. The police version was at odds with that though.

But it's pretty clear now
* The police made their version up
* Someone at the police then leaked their false report
* The member of the public who wrote to complain wasn't there and is a serving police officer
* The Police Federation's claim that he never gave his version of it is false

Watch the report. It has CCTV footage, the recording of the telephone conversation with the 'member of the public', and the recording of the meeting where Mitchell supposedly refused to give his version. Basically it all support's Mitchell's version of events 100%

http://www.channel4.com/news/andrew-mit ... ing-street

I find it satisfying that a member of the establishment has learned what most of us already know: The police lie.

I don't think this was a smart move by the Met. At all.

[jawafour]

He claims the defecit has reduced which is true.

The defecit is the gap between what the country brings in every year and what it spends.

We still have a defecit so our debt is still increasing. The rate it's increasing at is lower.

That sort of double talk is a great example of what a bunch of cunts they are.

EDIT: Here's the debt stats
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_na ... chart.html

Cheers, gravy - I'd thought it didn't add up. To a casual viewer, the broadcast gave the impression that huge inroads had been made. Any progress is good, but the figures confirm that we've only just left the starting line!

[seibu]

I don't think austerity can "work" as such. The UK recession wasn't caused by public spending, and cutting public spending wont fix it.

Eventually the recession will get fixed by recovering markets in the US and particularly Europe. But it wont have anything to do with austerity. "Austerity" is something the Tories pursue because it fits their political ideology and helps their friends and funders.