Politics Thread!

[Darkflame]

The opposition parties aren't really opposition parties. Why would you chastise Cameron for saying or doing something that will benefit you equally if you oust him?

If there is solid evidence of the "benefits" of spying, I dont think all the opposition parties would be privy to it would they?
Besides even for purely selfish reasons, why not going against them? Its not like positions don't change their minds on stuff once they are in power.

At the moment its like they are scared to even raise it as an issue.

I am disconnected at the moment....but isnt there even condemnation of, say, detaining the Gaurdian's partner at an Airport under terrorism charges?
Even if you fully support spying...even if you know for sure its worth the costs....theres still so many objections to whats been going on :-/

I have been living in the Netherlands for awhile now...getting increasingly relived I moved....but I look back at my home country and really....Censorship, Mass spying, and now heavy press intimidation......why the fuck isn't there riots in the streets? why isn't the opposition party's capitalizing on this shit?

All of those things? They're bad, absolutely they are. But to you pretty abstract. If you lived in the UK the only way it'd really affect you is the same way it does now; reading about it on the internet and making you tut.

Thing is, it does effect you. If you cant trust what the press says, you cant trust anything about any choices the government makes. You need data to make rational decisions on anything.

As for the spying; It effects business's. Anyone with any trade secrets. Anyone involved with keeping secrets for others (ie, cloud hosting services).
Any company doing a big business dealing.

Or, hell, anyone that piss's off anyone employed or involved with keeping this data.

We cant assume something is abstract because, currently, your specific life isnt effected in ways you can see.. Its like saying the danger of asbestos is "abstract" so it doesn't mater if its all around you.

And this is before we get too future-dangers of how much easier it makes manipulating elections.

Or, hell, more abstract then that even; The guy running your country has a lot of power, and has proven to be either ethically bankrupt or having no sense of logic, or both. THAT will effect everyone.

(and me too,to some degree, given how inter-connected the world is)

Unfortunately though, your right about tutting on the internet, that pretty much all I am doing on my part.
Technically I am still registered to vote in the UK...although I am not sure if I still should be. So theres that at least.

This isn't an issue with the UK. It's an issue with governments in general

Unquestionably all governments are doing shitty things - no question.

But currently the UK government is doing a lot of things that the others are not....and possibly, if they get away with it, others might copy them.

I mean for fucks sake you got the PM using people doing as they were told by him as admission of guilt.

If you let the leader of a country get away with that logic, your basically going back to allowing leaders arrest anyone at their pleasure.

--

Also, The Dutch wouldn't be able to use that Prism data, if the UK and the US wernt collecting it to start with.
Not that it excuses any compliance.
And of course, if it comes out that the dutch have a GCHQ style set up, that should be codemned as well.

As it stands though, the UK for sure is monitoring nearly all of Europeans communications....without any public oversight, or legal justification whatsoever....and no one in any sort of power seems to be complaining.
That scares the shit out of me.
If there was, at least, some legal case made. A hearing. Some sort of due-process. I wouldn't like it, but at least it would seem like part of a democracy.

TBH from my point of view the best argument you can make for living in Holland is it's not Portsmouth

Holland, yes.
The Netherlands, No

(Incidentally, I didn't mind Portsmouth that much when I lived there...at least there was some good curry places).

[gravy]

The other argument is the UK is doing what everyone else is but incompetently and getting caught.

Longer term that's good for everyone

[Harlequin]

Holland, yes.
The Netherlands, No

Yes, I do feel that people assuming Holland to be the whole of the Netherlands is almost as bad as people assuming that the United States are the whole of America.

[gravy]

[zip accident]

The opposition parties aren't really opposition parties. Why would you chastise Cameron for saying or doing something that will benefit you equally if you oust him?

If there is solid evidence of the "benefits" of spying, I dont think all the opposition parties would be privy to it would they?
Besides even for purely selfish reasons, why not going against them? Its not like positions don't change their minds on stuff once they are in power.

At the moment its like they are scared to even raise it as an issue.

Purely selfish reasons don't sell well at the ballot box.

What the Prime Minister is saying is that he know something that we don't and that we have to trust him. He is also co-incidentally David Cameron, but it's not in his personal capacity that he's asking for trust.

The benefits to the party in power of knowing exactly what everyone is saying are immense.

I am disconnected at the moment....but isnt there even condemnation of, say, detaining the Gaurdian's partner at an Airport under terrorism charges?
Even if you fully support spying...even if you know for sure its worth the costs....theres still so many objections to whats been going on :-/

I have been living in the Netherlands for awhile now...getting increasingly relived I moved....but I look back at my home country and really....Censorship, Mass spying, and now heavy press intimidation......why the fuck isn't there riots in the streets? why isn't the opposition party's capitalizing on this shit?

All of those things? They're bad, absolutely they are. But to you pretty abstract. If you lived in the UK the only way it'd really affect you is the same way it does now; reading about it on the internet and making you tut.

Thing is, it does effect you. If you cant trust what the press says, you cant trust anything about any choices the government makes. You need data to make rational decisions on anything.

That's not new, it's been that way since Roman times. Most people don't realise, some realise when they turn thirty, or fourty, or fifty. Newly realising an old phenomenon does not make the phenomenon new.

I mean for fucks sake you got the PM using people doing as they were told by him as admission of guilt.

If you let the leader of a country get away with that logic, your basically going back to allowing leaders arrest anyone at their pleasure.

The return of the inquisition, with the return of their old enemy.

There is potential for this to get very, very bad indeed.

[merman]

6 million people in fuel poverty.

MPs just claim energy bills, including those for second homes, on expenses.

And they are about to get a pay rise, thanks to the independent body set up after the expenses scandal.

But of course the real way to balance the books is to charge students more for their education and take benefits away from people.

[zip accident]

6 million people in fuel poverty.

MPs just claim energy bills, including those for second homes, on expenses.

And they are about to get a pay rise, thanks to the independent body set up after the expenses scandal.

But of course the real way to balance the books is to charge students more for their education and take benefits away from people.

There are 650 MPs total, there are tens of millions of poor people, £1 each from the poor works out to be more money than £2000 per MP.

[gravy]

The amazing lies of Ian Duncan Smith

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... eful-idiot

To be honest I'm amazed there's anything amazing about him

[pogo]

I don't always agree with The Economist but they're spot on here.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/blighty/ ... mmigration

The net migration numbers for the year ending September 2013 have just been released by the Office for National Statistics. They show that one of the coalition government’s boldest policies has been an embarrassing failure. This is excellent news.

As I've mentioned more than once the current government has two things dead wrong: its housing policy and its immigration policy. Luckily though while their unwillingness to address the housing shortage is an ongoing disaster, at least their wrong-headed immigration policies are being frustrated by actual immigration.

212,000, more than double where the government promised it will be come 2015. No chance of that now so I suspect they'll try and quietly drop that target. But it's good news, that despite the government's attempts to discourage them people still want to come here. From places like Spain and Italy understandably but also from Poland.

[pogo]

A year until the election and the Tories are in the lead in the polls according to the Guardian.

Support for Labour drops six points as Tories take lead in latest ICM poll

How could that happen? Oh yes, they elected Miliband.



Of course the Tories need a stronger lead than this to win outright, what with Labour having the advantage of those urban and Scottish seats. Except if Scotland votes to leave the union it will generate a large swing to the Tories and rob Labour of some of their most reliable seats. Certainly looks for an interesting 12 months politics wise.

[merman]

MPs had a lovely 17-day break over Easter. Now they get the benefit of another 20 days off.

So glad they are working hard to earn their salaries and expenses.

[venusian]

MPs had a lovely 17-day break over Easter. Now they get the benefit of another 20 days off.
So glad they are working hard to earn their salaries and expenses.

You should probably ask your MP what he/she has been doing during those days "off". It's akin to teachers only working from 9 to 3:30 and having loads of time off.

[gravy]

It's a drop in the ocean though isn't it?

[merman]

MPs had a lovely 17-day break over Easter. Now they get the benefit of another 20 days off.
So glad they are working hard to earn their salaries and expenses.

You should probably ask your MP what he/she has been doing during those days "off". It's akin to teachers only working from 9 to 3:30 and having loads of time off.

My MP is in Nigeria, actually, in his capacity as a Foreign Office minister.

But the point was, why do they need more time away from Parliament so soon after the Easter break? And what's happening to legislation during this break? Indeed, will they actually achieve anything in Parliament in this next year up to the election, with the coalition bickering amongst itself and the opposition ineffective?

[pogo]

Idiot: