Amanda Fucking Palmer

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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

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gravy wrote:Genuine question, what's Dawkins actual contribution to science?
I remember hearing him introduced in a talk broadcast on Radio 4, and it sounded like he did actually do something, but wikipedia gives me the impression he just taught and wrote books up until the point he lost his mind and went on a crusade against theistic religion.

But aren't the requirements for being a professor to contribute scientifically on an on-going basis in that mundane way that passes for a day job in science?


In the talk he started out sounding fairly reasonable (maybe right, maybe wrong, but not stupid), up until he fielded a question involving religion and then it all turned into bitter raving. This is, in fact, precisely the same pattern as I observed when I tried to read the English translation of Mein Kampf.
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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

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VNVObit wrote:
(o)(o) wrote:[

Dawkins is a guy who has spent a lifetime collecting awards in recognition for his enormous input into sciences.

These statements he puts out are based on a foundation of decades of inquiry and reasoning.

But you say he's just flogging books... ?? Mmmmkkkaayyy.... :lol:
I am not disputing his academic credentials but they are completely irrelevant to the matter being discussed.

He effectively stood up in a "pub" and shouted out his views to get attention. If it was unwittingly done then the apology would have been a real apology not some justification that blamed the reader for misunderstanding him.

As for flogging books the reference to his book was unnecessary to get his point across, so yeah that's just gratuitously plugging books. The fact that passed you by suggests you need to open your eyes a bit more than you do.

I also noted one of commenters saying that this latest outburst had breathed some life back into the Dawkins site.

Unlike you I am not laughing at you or your position I just think you are taking what he says in this case at face value with no critical evaluation.
It's pretty much once a year, last August it was the Muslims haven't won many noble prizes bollocks.
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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

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gravy wrote:Dawkins says something a path of action is LOGICAL and MORAL yet there's a bunch of people that take the implicitly LESS MORAL and LESS LOGICAL route but have a positive experience.
Positive experiences are not precluded despite a child being severely disadvantaged and having physical and mental disabilities. Typical downs adults have a mental age of 8-9 years. They are destined to lead impaired lives and be highly dependent on others - whoever they may be (no guarantees the parents will be there so this really does need consideration as unlike normal functioning humans they cannot be expected to care for themselves). Probably requiring a lifetimes assistance from charities and support groups and financial supportto lead fulfilling lives. Downs are prone to certain health conditions like congenital heart disease, leukemia, thyroid disorders, and need to be checked throughout life for these. They typically have sensory impairment eg hearing and sight problems among other defects. They have shortened lifespans. I could go on...

The decision whether to proceed in turning a bunch of CELLS into a disadvantaged HUMAN BEING lies with the parents.

Contrary to your bludgeoning portrayal of Dawkins as an absolutist he's very much the opposite. This is relevant, and to speciesism too : https://richarddawkins.net/2013/01/the- ... tmas-2011/

Dawkins revolutionised the field of evolutionary biology and has written seminal and extremely influential works on genetics - pertinent to this topic - among a host of other topics. He's a luminary scientist with decades of accolades. Surprised you haven't heard of him.
VNVObit wrote:He effectively stood up in a "pub" and shouted out his views to get attention.
No he did not. He addressed somebody / small group directly, using @. This was explained in the link you provided earlier.
VNVObit wrote:I just think you are taking what he says in this case at face value with no critical evaluation.
No I've invested a lot of time on related topics this is familiar territory. I hear the complaints about Dawkins but when you actually listen to what he says - and not what others say about him - he turns out to be very reasonable and also compassionate. Sorry if I chuckled at you there but the suggestion that Dawkins is shilling books was surreal. He certainly wants to get his message out there - but this is not Katie Price were' talking about. :D
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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

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(o)(o) wrote:Dawkins revolutionised the field of evolutionary biology
Really? Go on
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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

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(o)(o) wrote:
VNVObit wrote:He effectively stood up in a "pub" and shouted out his views to get attention.
No he did not. He addressed somebody / small group directly, using @. This was explained in the link you provided earlier.
Twitter is like being in a pub not a place where you want to have a private conversation. If he truly wanted one via Twitter he could have have direct messaged rather than the public @

so a good comparison of the conversation he was having is that of a group of people at a table in a pub. Given his public stature (i.e. his large following) then he effectively is that loud person that everyone in the pub can hear no matter how quiet he tries to be. I don't imagine for a minute that he is now aware of this
(o)(o) wrote:the suggestion that Dawkins is shilling books was surreal
can you provide an alternative reason for gratuitous book references?
(o)(o) wrote:I hear the complaints about Dawkins but when you actually listen to what he says
My criticisms were derived from reading his words not those of others ( I didn't venture an opinion until I read his own post)
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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

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gravy wrote:
(o)(o) wrote:Dawkins revolutionised the field of evolutionary biology
Really? Go on
I don't think this one's getting answered :D

In other news
Chief Scientist for The ALS Association, Lucie Bruijn wrote:We are currently not funding primate studies and per our statement, support research that adheres to ethical guidelines.
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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

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gravy wrote:
gravy wrote:
(o)(o) wrote:Dawkins revolutionised the field of evolutionary biology
Really? Go on
I don't think this one's getting answered :D
Why the smug smiley?

You're not genuine. If you were sincere you would go off and find out for yourself.
A Counter-Argument to the Counter-Argument Against Pamela Anderson’s Post Against Animal Testing wrote: I recently reposted Pamela Anderson’s wonderful statement against animal testing, both here on Tumblr as well as on Facebook. (Here’s a link to my repost: http://nrgins.tumblr.com/post/954967166 ... al-testing )

One of my Facebook friends responded there with a link to a counter-argument to Pamela’s post. Here is the link I was given: http://thedailybanter.com/2014/08/als-a ... l-testing/

I replied to my Facebook friend with a counter-argument to that counter-argument. So I thought I’d repost it here as well. It is below.

I read that counter-argument. There’s a lot of double-talk in it. Let’s look at it.

The ALS Association says:

"Significant advances have been made in ALS and other neurological disorders such as Alzheimer’s Disease and Parkinson’s Disease using model systems such as rodents, flies and worms to better understand disease mechanisms and to develop therapies."

Great! Who cares about rodents, flies and worms, right? Vermin! Note, though, that they DON’T say that they don’t test on higher life forms, such as monkeys. They just say “such as rodents, flies and worms.” Good job skirting the issue there, ALSA!

Next, they say:

"The ALS Association supports laboratories and scientists that strictly adhere to the guidelines provided by the National Institutes of Health."

Great! Sounds like there’s no problem then, right? Only problem is that the “guidelines provided by the National Institutes of Health” allow for the kind of torturous experimentation that Pam is talking about. So good use of double-speak there, ALSA!

And then there’s this doozy:

"If a donor is not comfortable with a specific type of research, he or she can stipulate that their dollars not be invested in that particular area."

Great! But they would still be supporting the organization that does those things, and it would have no impact at all on whether those things are done. Much of their funding doesn’t go to animal research anyway. So saying that funds shouldn’t go to animal research would have no effect on the situation, and the same amount of funding overall would still go to animal research.

So, basically, just an empty statement on the part of ALSA.

Next:

"We are currently not funding primate studies and per our statement, support research that adheres to ethical guidelines."

Again, more double-speak. Pam didn’t say they were currently funding primate studies; only that they had “recently” done so. Note that they didn’t deny that claim, nor did they even address it.

No doubt they backed off of their primate studies once they received backlash (prior to Pam’s post, I assume), and so they are “currently not funding primate studies.”

Again, a completely empty statement by ALSA.

First, it doesn’t address the claim that they had recently performed those atrocious acts. The claims Pamela made would have been very simple to deny, IF they were false claims. And ALSA certainly would have denied them if they were false! But, apparently, they couldn’t do so.

But, also, if you read it carefully, you’ll see that they don’t say that they won’t do so again in the future, either! They simply say, “We are currently not funding primate studies.” Not “we have never funded primate studies,” nor “we will not fund primate studies in the future.” Just “we are currently not funding primate studies.”

Great double-speak, ALSA!

And then there’s that “we support research that adheres to ethical guidelines,” which, again, is meaningless, since current “ethical guidelines” allow for cruel and torturous treatment of lab animals.

Last, I’ll just say that the way the author of that article trivializes and distorts what Pam said shows that he’s just as biased against what she’s saying as he accuses her of being against ALSA.

Plus, he missed the point of her post completely. He repeatedly makes it an issue of whether one should donate to ALSA or “non-profits Pamela Anderson approves of,” which, again, trivializes what she’s saying and misses the point completely.

The point of Pam’s post is that animal testing is both cruel and unnecessary, and that she can’t support an organization that supports it. It’s a post about the need to eliminate animal testing completely, not whether you should donate to this organization or another organization. But the author of the article was so impassioned against what Pam was saying, that, apparently, he couldn’t see that.
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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

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VNVObit wrote:Twitter is like being in a pub not a place where you want to have a private conversation. If he truly wanted one via Twitter he could have have direct messaged rather than the public @
Do you want me to post a quote from the link you yourself provided where he clearly explains he intended for only a select few to receive the tweet?
VNVObit wrote:can you provide an alternative reason for gratuitous book references?
Looked at it again there were no "gratuitous" references IMO. He provides a couple of references for other materials (some freely available) which provide more comprehensive explanations of what he's saying.

Have you got a specific issue with his moral argument - because if you have I haven't seen it articulated.
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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

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(o)(o) wrote:
gravy wrote:
gravy wrote:
(o)(o) wrote:Dawkins revolutionised the field of evolutionary biology
Really? Go on
I don't think this one's getting answered :D
Why the smug smiley?

You're not genuine. If you were sincere you would go off and find out for yourself.
I know you're completely wrong. He's a smart guy but his primary activity is author. He's one of a huge amount of people working in science but is no way repsonsible for any revolution in evolutioanary biology and to be fait to him it's a pedastal he's never put himself on either.

For good or bad He's just a scientist who's ended up with a ludicrous amount of portent attached to his opinions because he's obnoxious to anyone he disagrees with in a way that NERDS vicariously find empowering. Probably more so than any of the actual books he's written.

I'd look to him for guidance on anything moral as much as I would my plumber, In fact I don't think my plumber would be so stupid to conflate morality and logic the way Dawkins has tried to in his latest brain fart.
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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

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gravy wrote:
(o)(o) wrote:
gravy wrote:
gravy wrote:
(o)(o) wrote:Dawkins revolutionised the field of evolutionary biology
Really? Go on
I don't think this one's getting answered :D
Why the smug smiley?

You're not genuine. If you were sincere you would go off and find out for yourself.
I know you're completely wrong.
Thanks for confirming your insincerity.

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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

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That seems to be a picture of no relevance at all. Well done.
Some Blogger Somewhere wrote:"We are currently not funding primate studies and per our statement, support research that adheres to ethical guidelines."

Again, more double-speak. Pam didn’t say they were currently funding primate studies; only that they had “recently” done so. Note that they didn’t deny that claim, nor did they even address it.
No, that was someone else, in this thread no less!
(o)(o) wrote:Now if she'll just take the "hole drilled in your head" challenge she can empathize with the monkeys being experimented on for ALS.
I guese that brings us full circle.

As an aside I think Dawkins, for good or bad, wouldn't be against animal testing. He's not even all that much against meat eating beyond a vague "it's kind of regratable but yeah it's tasty!". When you've something palpably more important at stake (lol!) than what he's having for tea, a potential treatment for MND say, it's much more likely he's going to side with the ALS assoiciation on this than swivel eyed internet zealots?
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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

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gravy wrote:In fact I don't think my plumber would be so stupid to conflate morality and logic the way Dawkins has tried to in his latest brain fart.
It's you that's conflating them. You're putting on deliberate lack of reading comprehension to drive an argument for fun.

Well, probably. I'm starting to wonder if you're not pretending to be a thick cunt.
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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

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Have you read his apology? He blames nutty pro-choicers for willfully misunderstanding and rubbishes people's actually experiences of parenting Downs children as clouded by emotion and not being logical.

There you go, someone actually paid attention to something you posted!
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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

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I agree with Gervais. The intentions/motivations behind comments/humour carry more weight than offence caused.

Dawkins doesn't set out to injure people even if he does occasionally cause "offence" through clumsy communication.

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Gravy on the other hand...
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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

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gravy wrote:Have you read his apology? He blames nutty pro-choicers for willfully misunderstanding and rubbishes people's actually experiences of parenting Downs children as clouded by emotion and not being logical.
You're doing it again.

gravy wrote:There you go, someone actually paid attention to something you posted!
Hardly!
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