Amanda Fucking Palmer

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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

Post by VNVObit »

gumboot wrote:The obligation is immaterial. It was the alternative posited for the comparison.
To say it was the alternative posited is like saying the questioner in "Beethoven's Fallacy" is correct, constructing a scenario to suit a predetermined answer. Common enough occurrence in debating/influencing situations but, as Dawkins points out, it doesn't make the questioner correct.

I recognised this conversation was going nowhere a while ago and tried to end it amicably (obviously that failed).
feel free to have the last word as you seem to have some deep seated need to
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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

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Hey, at least most of us agree Dawkins is a dick.

Let's all build on that consenus :D
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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

Post by Jonesey »

How about - Dawkins has a dick but God didn't put it there. Perhaps.
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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

Post by gumboot »

I bet Dawkins isn't a dick to animals, because they don't believe in god.
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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

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Dawkin's tea tonight

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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

Post by (o)(o) »

Now the novelty of the incident has worn off.. :lol:

Must concur with Mr Dawkins :
My phraseology may have been tactlessly vulnerable to misunderstanding, but I can’t help feeling that at least half the problem lies in a wanton eagerness to misunderstand.
I think reading his statement back :
“Obviously the choice would be yours. For what it’s worth, my own choice would be to abort the Down fetus and, assuming you want a baby at all, try again. Given a free choice of having an early abortion or deliberately bringing a Down child into the world, I think the moral and sensible choice would be to abort. And, indeed, that is what the great majority of women, in America and especially in Europe, actually do. I personally would go further and say that, if your morality is based, as mine is, on a desire to increase the sum of happiness and reduce suffering, the decision to deliberately give birth to a Down baby, when you have the choice to abort it early in the pregnancy, might actually be immoral from the point of view of the child’s own welfare. I agree that that personal opinion is contentious and needs to be argued further, possibly to be withdrawn. In any case, you would probably be condemning yourself as a mother (or yourselves as a couple) to a lifetime of caring for an adult with the needs of a child. Your child would probably have a short life expectancy but, if she did outlive you, you would have the worry of who would care for her after you are gone. No wonder most people choose abortion when offered the choice. Having said that, the choice would be entirely yours and I would never dream of trying to impose my views on you or anyone else.”
You notice he says "Given a FREE CHOICE"... and "MIGHT actually be imorral"... This isn't difficult, chaps. Nor black and white. 70% of women consistently choose to be screened 92% of those who get a positive for DS choose termination. So what.. THOSE woman are taking a LESS MORALposition than Mr Dawkins? Where are you drawing the moral line in the sand anyway. Every conception should go full term?? Even if it's a body with a brain stem (so nervous system thus alive) yet no brain and will never experience anything..???



As usual it's the way Dawkins delivers his message that caused offence. It's not logic devoid of human qualities either - on the contrary his rationality is intertwined with ethics. But I'm going to suggest that these little incidents may be not entirely 1000% accidental. I suspect - although he certainly can be clumsy with phrasing - and certain aspects of sincerity in his apologising - he's not a dick he's a compassionate person who doesn't want to cause hurt.. However there may be a slightly subversive (not in a bad way) element to his approach. "Whooops! I've caused a massive controversy again... but oh look... now there's a discussion raging here, seeded by my extremely cogent point about these important matters. Oh deary deary me." You've got to consider his understanding of memetic flow to make this logical leap, and I could be wrong. It might be something he's doing subconsciously.
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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

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(o)(o) wrote:However there may be a slightly subversive (not in a bad way) element to his approach. "Whooops! I've caused a massive controversy again... but oh look... now there's a discussion raging here, seeded by my extremely cogent point about these important matters.
That's called trolling.
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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

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tr(o)lling
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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

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Not significantly removed from S(o)cratic Ir(o)ny?
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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

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gumboot wrote:
(o)(o) wrote:However there may be a slightly subversive (not in a bad way) element to his approach. "Whooops! I've caused a massive controversy again... but oh look... now there's a discussion raging here, seeded by my extremely cogent point about these important matters.
That's called trolling.
I suppose you could use that term, but trolls tend to have dark personality traits and show signs of sadism, antisocial behavior, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism. So there's probably a better term for Dawkins behaviour.
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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

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(o)(o) wrote:
gumboot wrote:
(o)(o) wrote:However there may be a slightly subversive (not in a bad way) element to his approach. "Whooops! I've caused a massive controversy again... but oh look... now there's a discussion raging here, seeded by my extremely cogent point about these important matters.
That's called trolling.
I suppose you could use that term, but trolls tend to have dark personality traits and show signs of sadism, antisocial behavior, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism. So there's probably a better term for Dawkins behaviour.
Those are modern connotations which have led to the word being used as nothing more than an insult for any misbehaviour on the internet. If I accept that the word has changed its meaning then old-school trolls -- who goad people into exposing their own indefensible positions in a process akin to socratic irony -- have no epithet of their own.


But I don't think Dawkins is a dick for being any kind of troll. I think he's a dick because as soon as religion comes up he throws any notion of science down the toilet and starts making irrational and indefensible accusations.

Despite that, if it's not tainted by religion then I'm happy to appeal to his authority on intellectual matters.
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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

Post by (o)(o) »

gumboot wrote:I think he's a dick because as soon as religion comes up he throws any notion of science down the toilet and starts making irrational and indefensible accusations.
Be interested to hear what. I know someone who most closely aligns with pantheism and agrees with Dawky, this being his one real grievance. He cited some comments about Islam, but I don't know the full story. I hear these claims that he's offensive, yet am unable to find the stuff.

I watched the God Delusion on C4 many years back, that pissed me off. Felt smugness oozing through the TV. "I'm right nyaah nyaah". I've heard the audio book form since and do you know what, it's fine. Can't see a problem with it. In retrospect I'm wondering if I was reacting emotionally to his directness on the telly programme.

Perhaps he was trolling me via the TV. :P
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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

Post by Jonesey »

...and with that we're back in the room.



Or not. I dunno. Massive hangover....
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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

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Re: Amanda Fucking Palmer

Post by pogo »

Posting this again as it last appeared five or so pages back and the book's out; street date 11th November. Various launch parties/events in the US and Canada over the next couple of weeks or you could just buy the book: http://amandapalmer.net has links to various booksellers.

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