Fool me, this is real good shit ! [the VR thread]

[toxibunny]

I cant wait to live in a half virtual world......then maybe people will stop this obsession with vertically strolling sites. EVERYONE has them.
Seriously. Try. Something. New. urg.

Maybe at least...gasp....horizontal scrolling?
Or, you know, pages.

no ta.

[Darkflame]

Seriously? O_o
It was cool the first time, sure. But I'm amazed if you wouldn't be sick of it pretty soon.
Hololens, LIFX, Leapmotion, Spaceglass.....seems fancy tech websites love it. Information densities often tiny, poor site loading times. Isn't everything supposed to be mobile friendly now too? Not that I care for that much, but I can hardly imagine this sort of site lends itself to phones.

[pogo]

I certainly wouldn't be at all surprised if the final displays have some kind of hinge to trivially fold it up and down from the eyes. It's been pointed out many times by developers what a ballache it is continually taking the thing on and off when doing testing, and many similar issues apply in real life (especially if it's hard to remove e.g. glasses wearer like me).

An obvious thing to add now Sony have shown it in Morpheus; it might mean quite a radical redesign though, which might be too late to undertake. Crescent Bay was first shown six months ago. Presumably they’re far along designing the next version which might be the final version or very close to it - though if they were launching first half 2015 they would probably have mentioned it by now.

[Whiteball]

Crescent Bay was first shown six months ago. Presumably they’re far along designing the next version which might be the final version or very close to it - though if they were launching first half 2015 they would probably have mentioned it by now.

I believe they have basically already said 'not until 2016' now.

[pogo]

Not read that anywhere, although it’s plausible. Anything is possible given their lack of anything approaching an announcement of price, specs, availability. And here’s Megan McArdle with her own thoughts on the reasons:

Virtual Reality's Vomit Problem

Because of this problem, the industry has moved slowly. As one VR company's chief technology officer told the New York Times, they're afraid of a nightmare scenario where people enjoy the store demo, take it home and start throwing up. If people start to think of VR headsets as home vomitoriums, it could set the industry back a decade or more. So they are moving cautiously into the consumer market and warning developers against developing scenarios, such as roller coaster sequences, that are particularly likely to induce motion sickness.

She goes into the science behind the nausea issue; nothing new but the tech press hasn’t covered it perhaps as well as they should.

[Dio]

The problem is that there are very mixed reports on it.

Sensitivity varying wildly is one part of that. I would have expected myself to be quite sensitive, since I'm not good with motion sickness, seasickness and the like, but the worst I've had out of VR is mild discomfort.

Even something like TxK, which moves the camera in really quite an abusive way I got used to fairly quickly; my guess at this point is that as long as my brain can predict the motion everything works out OK.

In contrast our chief VR engineer here is apparently hyper-sensitive. Reckons it's useful for telling when the software / hardware stack isn't right.

One possibly telling fact is that I haven't yet had a convincing report of a genuine barf, despite having talked to about five hundred people using VR, many of them with appallingly pre-release software and hardware. More than possible that game developers in general are fast adapters, as well as adaptors, but at this point I'm not sure if there is much here other than discomfort. (Which is still bad, right? I can't play anything making me uncomfortable for more than a few minutes). And Gear VR is already out there, right...?

There may be a parallel here with the early automotive industry. Go read some of the press reports about that. It's hilarious - talk about the idea that people's internal organs would be destroyed by speeds in excess of 10mph (even though much faster speeds were already accessible via horse or indeed bicycle). Even the more credible stuff (that actually sounded like it had ridden in one of the faster vehicles) described violent turning motions associated with cornering as extremely unpleasant. At 20mph.

[pogo]

One possibly telling fact is that I haven't yet had a convincing report of a genuine barf, despite having talked to about five hundred people using VR, many of them with appallingly pre-release software and hardware. More than possible that game developers in general are fast adapters, as well as adaptors, but at this point I'm not sure if there is much here other than discomfort. (Which is still bad, right? I can't play anything making me uncomfortable for more than a few minutes). And Gear VR is already out there, right...?

There may be something of an “uncanny valley” with VR. At the moment with pre-release, pre-alpha software and hardware it might not be too nauseating because it’s not too realistic and immersive. But as it becomes more so, and in particular as people finish and deliver AAA software for it, it might become so convincing and work so well visually that it is especially jarring when what you see and what you’re inner ear tells you don’t match.

One example is one of the first realistic FPS titles for VR:

Virtual letdown: Dying Light shows the difficulties of first-person VR
Interface and nausea issues highlight how hard it is to get virtual reality right.

That sort of game seems like an ideal fit for VR, but it sounds like it’s the worst fit as far as triggering motion sickness goes.

[Dio]

Absolutely everyone involved has called standard FPS a nightmare, so it's hardly a good example.

And probably more notably, since the specific case of taking the camera off head tracking during cutscenes has been explicitly called "the most stupid thing you can possibly do" - well, it's hardly a surprise that it's not working, because the developers really aren't making the effort beyond the checkbox.

So if your argument is "developer idiocy is VR's biggest issue" then you might be right. But that's a very different argument to saying it's unplayable because of nausea.

[pogo]

So if your argument is "developer idiocy is VR's biggest issue" then you might be right.

It might come down to that, or at least developer lack of attention. Developers making a game for whom VR is not their primary platform. But they want to support so they integrate the SDK/SDKs, mention it in their press releases and ship the game. Due to luck/timing it’s in stores/on Steam at the same time as headsets start reaching consumers and lots of people buy the game for its VR support.

Perhaps they need to focus more on consumer education, getting information out to consumers, so they are better able to make judgements about what games to try and even whether or not VR is for them. Your average potential consumer probably thinks FPS are an ideal fit and will see nothing wrong with slapping such a game on there. It might be hard for them to realise there could be a problem, especially if the game is one not made for VR so there are few or no reports of problems with it.

[Darkflame]

Different people react differently.
Much like some people cant stand various sorts of steroscopicness but don't have problems with others. We are all wired a bit differently.

I think the only solution is some sort of tests, or rentals to try stuff out.

The MagicLeap people are claiming "everyone's bad for you except us", but well, they would wouldn't they

[pogo]

A bit differently. But motion sickness is incredibly common. I suspect we’ve all experienced some form of it in our life. Megan McArdle in the piece I linked to earlier makes it sound very natural:

Inside your head is an amazing system for keeping you upright. Your inner ears detect motion, and your brain coordinates that signal with your eyes to tell you where you are and how your body is moving through the environment. However, if this signal goes haywire -- if the message from your eyes doesn't match the message from your ears -- your brain responds by instructing your gastrointestinal system to prepare for some vomiting. That's what causes motion sickness (and why focusing on the horizon, which tells your brain you're moving, often helps). It's also a symptom of conditions such as vertigo.

As someone who suffers from a variant of vertigo, I've long been interested in this phenomenon, not just for personal reasons, but also because it's a bit of a mystery why this should occur -- not just to us, but to other species, too. Why does your brain react to a disconnect between ears and eyes by deciding it's time for some gastrointestinal distress? The reigning scientific theory, and one that I find extremely plausible, is that this is an evolutionary mechanism designed to protect us from neurotoxins.

Remember the first time you got drunk, and you noticed that there was a delay between moving your head and your vision catching up? That's neurotoxicity, and your body wants to protect you from it, so it tells your stomach to forcibly eject whatever funny thing you just ate. Unfortunately, modern enclosed transportation often replicates the symptoms of neurotoxicity, which for people who are sensitive to motion sickness means vomiting up that perfectly harmless bowl of oatmeal you had for breakfast.

And VR is doing pretty much the same as the normal triggers of motion sickness, it’s feeding your eyes different information to what your inner ears pick up.

[Darkflame]

Sure, but Magic Leap wont be any different in that way. There "thing" will be better focusing - which might be the cause of other issues but it wont be any better or worse in terms of "lag between image and head position".
It has more in common with the issues some people have with 3d cinema. Of course, even normal 2d films can cause motion sickness, but in additional some people have issues with 3d separation.

Luckly the only issues Ive ever had are unrelated to either - I had problems with strobbing on shutter glasses. Too long and my eyes watered. Polarised I can have them on for, well, at least a few hours non-stop.

I think clearly theres a few things and people can likely have any combination of them.

[gumboot]

Is motion sickness set to be over explained to death just like the blue, gold, white, and black dress?

[Whiteball]

Is motion sickness set to be over explained to death just like the blue, gold, white, and black dress?

Yes, because where VR is concerned they will never solve it (because that is not the problem - It is not motion sickness).

[Dio]

And VR is doing pretty much the same as the normal triggers of motion sickness, it’s feeding your eyes different information to what your inner ears pick up.

I'm not sure it is, though. The thing about motion sickness is that the motion you feel is unpredictable; one of the reasons people don't get motion sick driving - and that the driver is always ten times more comfortable than the passengers - is that you have very good linkage between your actions and your sensed movements. Sideways G-forces that have passengers screaming for mercy are barely sensed by the driver, assuming they have a moderately well set up seating position.

The thing about VR is that the motion you feel is predictable (i.e. none). So it's all about the movement of the camera instead.

I have a feeling that the brain may (in the general case) learn to adapt quite quickly if the disparity is initiated by the user and highly predictable (i.e. easily learned). Certainly, that's how I felt about TxK. My first game was distinctly uncomfortable but the sensation lasted less than a few goes on it.

We're still pretty early in the learning process for this though.