USB 3.1 sightings

[pogo]

No other thread this obviously belongs in and this I think is interesting enough for its own thread. It was announced a few months ago and first versions for developers appeared last year but it’s starting to appear in devices at CES. This is the cable interface we’ll all be using in two years time. It's not so much the new USB spec but the new connector Type-C. Here it is on the left next to a Lightning and micro USB, to get some idea of size. It’s small enough basically, not quite as small as Lightning but small enough for pretty much any phone or other portable device:

There isn’t a separate ‘micro’ version, there’s just this. They‘ve sensibly realised with more and more computing done on mobile that there’s no need for a large version. Like Lightning it’s reversible, eliminating the problem of USB-B and micro USB that it’s easy to try and insert them the wrong way round, wasting time and potentially damaging them.

(micro USB 3 doesn’t have the same problem with reversibility, it's so large, ugly and non-symmetric that it's hard to put in wrong. But it’s so wrong it’s hardly been adopted on devices)

It’s twice as fast as USB 3, itself hardly slow but it means it can do far more; external SSDs as fast as internal ones for example. It can even carry non-USB signals, to a monitor for example, so could replace e.g. Thunderbolt ports for most uses (they top out at a higher speed but probably few devices need that).

It’s so much better than 3.0, which has hardly seen much success in its micro format, that this should take off very quickly. Apple will stick with Lightning but will probably use it in PCs, especially their laptops. Everyone else will quickly put it in phones and soon after in PCs too.

[zip accident]

No other thread this obviously belongs in and this I think is interesting enough for its own thread. It was announced a few months ago and first versions for developers appeared last year but it’s starting to appear in devices at CES. This is the cable interface we’ll all be using in two years time. It's not so much the new USB spec but the new connector Type-C. Here it is on the left next to a Lightning and micro USB, to get some idea of size. It’s small enough basically, not quite as small as Lightning but small enough for pretty much any phone or other portable device:

There isn’t a separate ‘micro’ version, there’s just this. They‘ve sensibly realised with more and more computing done on mobile that there’s no need for a large version. Like Lightning it’s reversible, eliminating the problem of USB-B and micro USB that it’s easy to try and insert them the wrong way round, wasting time and potentially damaging them.

(micro USB 3 doesn’t have the same problem with reversibility, it's so large, ugly and non-symmetric that it's hard to put in wrong. But it’s so wrong it’s hardly been adopted on devices)

It’s twice as fast as USB 3, itself hardly slow but it means it can do far more; external SSDs as fast as internal ones for example. It can even carry non-USB signals, to a monitor for example, so could replace e.g. Thunderbolt ports for most uses (they top out at a higher speed but probably few devices need that).

It’s so much better than 3.0, which has hardly seen much success in its micro format, that this should take off very quickly. Apple will stick with Lightning but will probably use it in PCs, especially their laptops. Everyone else will quickly put it in phones and soon after in PCs too.

I think you are mistaking how important backward compatibility is for USB, if there is no backward compatibility in the connection, then I think people won't want it.

Bandwidth to monitors is important, current standards tend to top out at 2,048 * 1,536 pixels. DVI stops short at 33 Hz when you get up to 3840 * 2400. UHD (3840 * 2160) for monitors is coming, prices are falling, and Apple have already exceeded it with their 5K iMac.

[pogo]

It's 100% backwards compatible, with a suitable adapter, which will no doubt proliferate. The problem is the current state of USB is so unsatisfactory.

There are no small, high speed connectors in USB.:
* Micro USB is small but only does USB 2.0 (and is physically inelegant, not being reversible but being too small to easily see or feel which way to correctly orient it)
* Micro USB 3 is a joke, not small at all, a nasty cludge so it’s physically backwards compatible with micro USB but has extra pins for the high speed USB 3 signal.

USB 3.1 is small. Not quite as compact as micro USB but it gains reversibility for better usability. Twice as fast as USB 3, so plenty fast enough.It will quickly appear on phones and tablets. It’s so close in size that it’s a straightforward replacement for USB micro in designs, so gives extra speed and reversibility for little redesign work. Phones can of course bundle cables and adapters in the box.

PCs will adopt it too, alongside USB B ports. It will be years before USB B disappears completely, except perhaps in laptops and micro PCs where the pressure for space is greater. Other small devices such as cameras, hard drives which will also benefit from the speed boost.

And of course Apple Macs. Apple’s rumoured next Macbook sports one of these and only one of these. It looks like it takes over everything, not just USB but presumably wired networking, video and power. Which gives some indication of what it can do. If the rumours are correct then Apple will need to include some adapters, perhaps a special hub. Not the first time they’ve done something like this; twenty years ago the PowerBook Duo was limited in ports but added more via an optional Dock.

[pogo]

For Thunderbolt and Lightning, USB-C is very, very frightening

Well, as expected it appeared in the new Apple laptop. The obvious benefit is it reduces the number of ports needed to one. It really can do everything. It’s probably the future of ports on Mac. Thing is despite Apple’s repeated attempts to establish a new interface standard USB is by far the dominant port on Macs.

Looking at my Mac mini the HDMI and Thunderbolt ports are both used for monitors. The Firewire 800 and ethernet ports are unused: I have nothing that plugs in the former and networking is Wifi. But all four USB ports are used. In fact one has a hub hanging off it which has three of its four sockets occupied. That’s six different USB devices and is hardly exceptional. I would use more if I had them, for a phone charger, USB stick drives and card readers.

And USB 3.1 does even more; essentially it obsoletes Thunderbolt as a combination AV/digital interface. Firewire was already falling by the wayside, and Thunderbolt will do the same. I’m not sure the USB C port will replace Lightning which is even more compact and suited for phones, and Apple don’t need to change it in a hurry. But it will at least let other manufacturers add similarly small and fast interfaces to their phones.

[zip accident]

The Firewire 800 and ethernet ports are unused: I have nothing that plugs in the former and networking is Wifi.

Firewire died out with moving media in Camcorders. It was excellent for controlling the motors of DV tape, but with storage now being on flash, it's unnecessary.

[pogo]

Firewire was a faster than USB as a digital interface for a long time, initially a lot faster. USB has come on in leaps and bounds and with USB 3 it at last overtook Firewire, but only recently. The long advantage Firewire had meant there was always a market for it, for e.g. fast hard drives where the extra speed made a difference. Even today if you own a Mac which is more than a couple of years old, so has USB 2 instead of 3, then Firewire 800 is the fastest way to interface a hard drive to it and you can still buy them, from Apple at least.

[gumboot]

For a long time FireWire had a lower headline figure (400Mbps rather than USB's 480), and that seemed to do the trick to convince a lot of people. Actual throughout was about 3:2 in favour of FireWire, though.

[Cloudane]

Well this is interesting. So do you think this one will take off?

I must admit, I saw USB-C on the new MacBook and my first thought was "here we go again". On my current Air, at the time Apple were refusing to have anything to do with USB 3.0 so it's stuck with USB 2.0 and since I wanted some external speed I had to pay an arm and a leg for a Thunderbolt drive. They said all this last time - "Thunderbolt is the future, all the PC manufacturers will adopt it and loads of accessories will come out and it'll drop in price and become the standard". It seemed that way at the time as TB is basically like an external PCIe so you can do anything with it super fast, what a great interface! In reality it got crippled with license fees, I think the odd motherboard manufacturer included it on one or two models and accessories were stupid amounts of money compared to their "good enough" USB counterparts. It was like that old Betamax/VHS thing yet again (no one ever learns - history just repeats over and over). If this gets wider adoption given that USB 3.0 did, great.

[pogo]

Well this is interesting. So do you think this one will take off?

Yes; it’s basically the next USB not some Apple proprietary connector. It also fixes one particular problem with USB 3, the horrible micro interface:

That is ugly, not reversible, particularly complex and not especially small – it’s thin but as wide as normal USB plugs. But it was phone makers only option for a fast interface. Apple of course created a whole new interface instead, Lightning, but probably only Apple has the engineering talent and market share to make it work. USB 3.1 with the USB-C interface largely eliminates the advantage Lightning gave Apple.

[zip accident]

Firewire was a faster than USB as a digital interface for a long time, initially a lot faster. USB has come on in leaps and bounds and with USB 3 it at last overtook Firewire, but only recently. The long advantage Firewire had meant there was always a market for it, for e.g. fast hard drives where the extra speed made a difference. Even today if you own a Mac which is more than a couple of years old, so has USB 2 instead of 3, then Firewire 800 is the fastest way to interface a hard drive to it and you can still buy them, from Apple at least.

I'd guess that the majority of firewire devices sold (except PCs as media stores and converters) were camcorders. There was a period when reasonably cheap camcorders all used firewire.

[xav]

I'm less than convinced by Apple's single USB-C connector approach. Yes, it emphasises the fact that it can do everything, but when you're 30 minutes into a data transfer from an external drive that's taking longer than expected and your battery is running low you'll be somewhat annoyed at the lack of a second socket to plug the PSU into.

Google's new Pixl is better in that respect as it does appear to have two USB-C sockets in the photos I've seen (plus a couple of USB-B sockets I think, but that's besides the point). The good news for anyone buying Apple's laptop, though, is that Google has some more reasonably priced USB-C accessories to go with the Pixl (https://store.google.com/category/accessories) if you want to avoid the Apple gouging tax to some degree.

[pogo]

I'm less than convinced by Apple's single USB-C connector approach. Yes, it emphasises the fact that it can do everything, but when you're 30 minutes into a data transfer from an external drive that's taking longer than expected and your battery is running low you'll be somewhat annoyed at the lack of a second socket to plug the PSU into.

Google's new Pixl is better in that respect as it does appear to have two USB-C sockets in the photos I've seen (plus a couple of USB-B sockets I think, but that's besides the point). The good news for anyone buying Apple's laptop, though, is that Google has some more reasonably priced USB-C accessories to go with the Pixl (https://store.google.com/category/accessories) if you want to avoid the Apple gouging tax to some degree.

USB-C though does power in both directions, so you can have an adapter that both has USB out and powers the computer. Both Apple video adapters for it do exactly this (as well as have HDMI or VGA out). Probably adapters will appear that do just power and USB for less, whether from Google or others. Certainly a second USB-C would give flexibility but then it would on such a thin machine need to be traded off against something. It’s not for everyone but then Apple are still selling laptops with more ports, storage and power.

[pogo]

USB drives from LaCie and SanDisk.


The SanDisk is rather over-engineered and probably has a price to match but the LaCie Porche is more straightforward. It will certainly still cost more but then USB 3.1 also provides a significant speed boost – it will be an obvious option for drive makers looking to highlight the speed of their fastest drives. Pretty soon prices should fall to match other drives as it becomes standard.

[xav]

I'm less than convinced by Apple's single USB-C connector approach. Yes, it emphasises the fact that it can do everything, but when you're 30 minutes into a data transfer from an external drive that's taking longer than expected and your battery is running low you'll be somewhat annoyed at the lack of a second socket to plug the PSU into.

USB-C though does power in both directions, so you can have an adapter that both has USB out and powers the computer. Both Apple video adapters for it do exactly this (as well as have HDMI or VGA out).

You've missed the point I was making. I know about the adapters that Apple has announced, and that they've got a USB-C passthrough that allows you to plug the charger into them, but the scenario I'm envisaging is this:

1) You have to get some files off an external drive so you plug it straight into the USB-C port.
2) You start copying the files.
3) Perhaps there are lots of files, or a few big ones, or you lost track of how much battery power you had left, but one way or another you're halfway through the copy job when you get to a point that you have to charge the laptop.
4) You have no choice but to cancel the copy job so that you can unplug the drive in order to charge the computer. If you happen to have a suitable hub or adapter with you then you can now plug both the PSU and the drive back in and start over. But if you haven't you can only wait until the computer has charged enough to try again.

A second socket would add very little to the size of the laptop - certainly less than the extra bulk in your bag that the adapter will take up. The adapter, or a USB-C hub, becomes almost mandatory if you ever want to plug in an external drive and still have the possibility of being able to charge the machine at the same time.

[Cloudane]

Apple's view is most likely that USB pendrives are on their way out in favour of cloud storage and wireless transfer. They're always the first to phase out technologies like this, as with floppy drives, firewire then optical drives for example. Not that it's a phasing out in this case, but probably not a priority for them when designing the notebook i.e. deciding how many ports it should have.

The main issue is that there is no widely adopted, "any idiot can use it", cross-platform direct wireless transfer method at the moment. They have a great answer with airdrop, but it's Apple-only, so in the real world it's usually easiest to just use a pendrive.

Perhaps next year they'll squeeze in a second port. They usually do iron out the silly decisions in a generation or two, it keeps the hardcore "buy a new one every year" crowd coughing up