Politics Thread!

[pogo]

What's wrong with the STV system?

You maintain a link between constituency and representation but parliament is a closer reflection of the will of the people.

And it's not some CRAZY NEW SYSTEM but one that works elsewhere pretty well. In fact we're a bit of an anomaly among western, economically potent nations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting

That lists 47 places with FPTP systems. The data seems to come from here

http://www.idea.int/esd/type.cfm?electoralSystem=FPTP

which lists 45 places. So how many use STV instead?

http://www.idea.int/esd/type.cfm?electoralSystem=STV

Two, just Ireland and Malta. If anything is anomalous it’s that.

[Cloudane]

Wow!

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/05/12/da ... PNFacebook

That's a rather... interesting choice

Fortunately the Tory policy is still progressive on LGBT issues, and it doesn't seem like they're about to face-heel turn, but it's certainly another eyebrow-raising decision/

Could there be some kind of logic to it, rather like employing a hacker for a network security position? In theory if someone has learned from being an enemy of equality, they'll know the tactics they use.

[Absolute_Zero]

We may be in danger of some degree of echo chambering in here (even though YY is typically quite 'disagreement heavy' I think we're mostly sort of left-leaning and anti-Tory), which is one of the criticisms being bandied about when it comes to people's handling of politics these days particularly with the advent of social media. A criticism I've also seen from the Right aimed at the Left is our tendency to use "politics of fear" i.e. scaremongering without substance.

Good grief, questioning self-awareness.

I note the thread poll produced a mere two vote lead for Labour. So where in this discourse are those Tory scum? There's a clue in the question.
LibDim if you're asking.

So to play devil's advocate and counter my own theories on scrapping the Human Rights Act paving the way to capital punishment,

...and torture. Don't forget torture.

But hey, good for you for taking the trouble to look into it.

[gravy]

What's wrong with the STV system?

You maintain a link between constituency and representation but parliament is a closer reflection of the will of the people.

And it's not some CRAZY NEW SYSTEM but one that works elsewhere pretty well. In fact we're a bit of an anomaly among western, economically potent nations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting

That lists 47 places with FPTP systems. The data seems to come from here

http://www.idea.int/esd/type.cfm?electoralSystem=FPTP

which lists 45 places. So how many use STV instead?

http://www.idea.int/esd/type.cfm?electoralSystem=STV

Two, just Ireland and Malta. If anything is anomalous it’s that.

Lol, the choice isn't FPTP or STV. It's plurality vs proportionaility.

We're a country with a pluralistic electoral structure even though it's patently clear that voting habits would now be better served with a proportional vote.

It doesn't matter until proportionality of representation gets out of hand, that's when the system needs to change and I think we may be fast approaching that.

Here's effective number of parties in votes vs seats for post war until 2010. The trend is pretty obvious.

[Absolute_Zero]

Wow!

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/05/12/da ... PNFacebook

That's a rather... interesting choice

Fortunately the Tory policy is still progressive on LGBT issues, and it doesn't seem like they're about to face-heel turn, but it's certainly another eyebrow-raising decision/

Could there be some kind of logic to it, rather like employing a hacker for a network security position? In theory if someone has learned from being an enemy of equality, they'll know the tactics they use.

It's a well-worn stratagem of PM's and Presidents to put boat-rockers on the payroll in order to neuter them. LBJ: inside the tent pissing out.

[Cloudane]

It's a well-worn stratagem of PM's to put boat-rockers on the payroll in order to neuter them.

Yeah I read the same kind of thing in the comments on pinknews, that being put in that position might actually make her more sympathetic. It does have logical merit. As you seem quite knowledgeable on these matters, do you have any input on whether it's been successful in the past, in terms of neutering the boat rocker and also having them deliver a good performance in their post?

[(o)(o)]

As for that other question, no, that is precisely the wrong way to do it, and then leave it up to politicians to come up with a system that suits them, rather than one that’s genuinely better.

This question ?



See the words "Part A" ?

This is Part B :



I mean, look at that.

You give the public a range of options - and they decide.

Disgusting isn't it.

[Absolute_Zero]

Yeah I read the same kind of thing in the comments on pinknews, that being put in that position might actually make her more sympathetic. It does have logical merit. As you seem quite knowledgeable on these matters, do you have any input on whether it's been successful in the past, in terms of neutering the boat rocker and also having them deliver a good performance in their post?

Her predecessor, Nicky Morgan, voted against the same-sex marriage bill and subsequently went native in post.

[edit] it says so in the link... agitprop fail

[pogo]

Lol, the choice isn't FPTP or STV. It's plurality vs proportionaility.

The other objection (other than FPTP being favoured by the electorate when recently asked) is that the current imbalances with an overlarge and unrepresentative SNP contingent will largely addressed if the West Lothian question is answered. It makes sense to focus on that rather than revisit the electoral system so soon.

[Cloudane]

Yeah I read the same kind of thing in the comments on pinknews, that being put in that position might actually make her more sympathetic. It does have logical merit. As you seem quite knowledgeable on these matters, do you have any input on whether it's been successful in the past, in terms of neutering the boat rocker and also having them deliver a good performance in their post?

Her predecessor, Nicky Morgan, voted against the same-sex marriage bill and subsequently went native in post.

[edit] it says so in the link... agitprop fail

Ah so it does - I saw the mention of Morgan but not that she was in that same post previously. It was presented as a shock new thing, so that detail slipped by as if it was just a story of some random MP changing her mind to the degree that she ended up campaigning for the LGBT side.

Cool, will be interesting to see if Dinenage ends up going down a similar path. It certainly doesn't seem the huge cause for concern that media (probably mostly social) will play it up to be, at least unless she proves otherwise.

[VNVObit]

Lol, the choice isn't FPTP or STV. It's plurality vs proportionaility.

The other objection (other than FPTP being favoured by the electorate when recently asked) is that the current imbalances with an overlarge and unrepresentative SNP contingent will largely addressed if the West Lothian question is answered. It makes sense to focus on that rather than revisit the electoral system so soon.

FPTP was only favoured as the only other option was crap and not a good example of proportional representation.

Secondly if we focus on getting an election system that's fit for purpose it would avoid any future potential son of west lothian questions arising and proportional representation when designed properly does avoid imbalances as there are mechanisms to ensure that it remains fair.

[pogo]

The West Lothian question is the one to do with Scottish MPs having a vote on matters like education which are devolved matters, so which are decided separately in Scotland. It would still be a problem if the system were changed, to AV or STV or MMC or whatever. So it needs solving or addressing independent of another referendum on the voting system.

On the other hand properly addressing the broader constitutional issue could well lead to changes in the system. E.g. an English parliament would not be that different to the Westminster one, with 90% of the same population coverage, the same left-right split, so could stay FPTP. But if the Lords is reformed at the same time it could adopt another system, especially as it doesn’t have one to replace. So a more proportionally elected Lords/Senate could complement a FPTP Commons/English parliament.

[gravy]

If there's an English parliament I can't see that it would be anything other than some form or PR like every other regional government in the UK.

[Dio]

So a more proportionally elected Lords/Senate could complement a FPTP Commons/English parliament.

And you don't think the Lords having a stronger democratic mandate than the Commons is likely to cause issues?

[VNVObit]

The West Lothian question is the one to do with Scottish MPs having a vote on matters like education which are devolved matters, so which are decided separately in Scotland. It would still be a problem if the system were changed, to AV or STV or MMC or whatever. So it needs solving or addressing independent of another referendum on the voting system.

On the other hand properly addressing the broader constitutional issue could well lead to changes in the system. E.g. an English parliament would not be that different to the Westminster one, with 90% of the same population coverage, the same left-right split, so could stay FPTP. But if the Lords is reformed at the same time it could adopt another system, especially as it doesn’t have one to replace. So a more proportionally elected Lords/Senate could complement a FPTP Commons/English parliament.

Where Federalism exists there is significant internal migration based on practical decisions (education, etc.) so actually I think the Scots should have a say in the English system if for no other reason than to ensure the system in England is not perceived (rightly or wrongly) as poorer than the Scottish one and so encourage cross border migration.

Ditto for the health service. Having artificial barriers may work in the minds of some politicians but they don't work in reality (e.g. roll out of IDS's single benefit payment which effectively assumed no one would move across local authority boundaries, much less national ones, in search of work, education, etc.)