Politics Thread!

[merman]

Cameron is in a right pickle, isn't he? Needed Labour to ABSTAIN to win a vote on Europe, then sends up Gideon to do PMQs while he sulks about the delays to the Chilcott enquiry.

It's now going to take longer to report than our soldiers were involved in combat operations in Iraq - and it will be Cameron who gets a load of negative flak for not getting it finished.

[(o)(o)]

This is just the beginning.

[pogo]

It's now going to take longer to report than our soldiers were involved in combat operations in Iraq - and it will be Cameron who gets a load of negative flak for not getting it finished.

Cameron ? The Inquiry was set up under Labour, on something that happened when Labour were in Government. They clearly wanted it to have a broad remit, not focussing on e.g. just the decision to go into Iraq. I.e. Labour sought to spread the blame around as much as possible, which is taking more time both to compile and to give everyone a right to reply.

Labour probably did not anticipate it still having not been published now, but must have quietly celebrated when it became clear it would not appear before the election, which would have led to many pointed questions about Iraq for Miliband. Now it will be much easier for them to ignore. Especially if they elect Liz Kendall as leader, who has already distanced herself from the economic failures of Blair/Brown, and who will find it easy to put the report behind her too as belonging to a different era of Labour politics.

[k345y]

This is just the beginning.

The beginning of nothing changing.

The conservatwats have a mandate, the majority of people voted for them, more people asked for the cuts than didn't, the fuckwits.
It's too early, too soon after the election for dreams of change.

And at the next general election Labour will be more than happy to pick up where the conservadicks left off.

[Ollie]

the majority of people voted for them

Factually inaccurate however you count it.

[zip accident]

With communism disproved, it's all abord the gravy train for the horribly rich, but they are forgetting that even though communism never made sense, there was still a Russian revolution, and a French one, and there's a lot more communication now, so corruption is harder to hide.

[k345y]

the majority of people voted for them

Factually inaccurate however you count it.

Well, fair enough, but under the current fptp they have the mandate. Folks did have the chance to vote for the alternative vote.

[(o)(o)]

the majority of people voted for them

Factually inaccurate however you count it.

Well, fair enough, but under the current fptp they have the mandate. Folks did have the chance to vote for the alternative vote.

FPTP is such a coarse tool some might say it's not 'fit for purpose'

64 million people live in the UK

11 million voted Conservative - 17% of the total population.

FPTP doesn't measure vehemence of opposition of the winning minority by the remainder!

[k345y]

the majority of people voted for them

Factually inaccurate however you count it.

Well, fair enough, but under the current fptp they have the mandate. Folks did have the chance to vote for the alternative vote.

FPTP is such a coarse tool some might say it's not 'fit for purpose'

64 million people live in the UK

11 million voted Conservative - 17% of the total population.

FPTP doesn't measure vehemence of opposition of the winning minority by the remainder!

That's right.

But so far any protests by assembly that I've seen have done nada, fuck all, and that includes the extremities of the miner strikes.
If it reeks of shit then protest about the core reasons why the shit smells of shit, austere cut backs are allowed to happen, because the established political system is wrong, regional majorities are not representative of the wider consensus. March to change that, that system, that undemocratic rot. Why waste your time organising protests when it makes no difference as the governing powers don't need your protest marches to pass policies any way?

[pogo]

And you think some other system would have given you a better result? Suppose the last election had been run with PR. Of course it’s impossible to say for sure, but the most likely outcome would still have been a Tory government, perhaps supported by UKIP.

Between them they got 49.5% of the vote, just short of 50%. But many PR systems have thresholds which exclude smaller parties. such as 10% or 5%. Even a 5% threshold would exclude the Greens, SNP, PC, and NI parties and give a Tory/UKIP government a working majority. Or there might be extra seats for the largest party, as in Greece, which would go to to the Tories. Or maybe with 49.5% they just rely on the DUP, or on Sinn Fein not taking their seats.

Which is why PR is a bad idea. If not UKIP then the SNP, or Greens, or Respect, would be in government, able too get their policies enacted, despite only being supported by a few % of the electorate.

But the above arithmetic also shows that the idea that the Tories are somehow in the minority, that a much larger number opposes them and opposes austerity, is simply false. Not only is the support for parties on the left smaller, but the left is hardly of one voice. Only one of the four Labour leadership candidates attended the protests, the one least likely to win (or at least I hope so, as if Jeremy Corbyn becomes Labour leader it would be disastrous for the party).

[k345y]

And you think some other system would have given you a better result?

Yes.

At the least more representative than a regional seat does.

"If not UKIP then the SNP, or Greens, or Respect, would be in government,"

And why shouldn't they be ? If the vote represents the electorate then that's what the people want.



and btw....Respect ? No, UKIP and SNP yes.

[VNVObit]

Only one of the four Labour leadership candidates attended the protests, the one least likely to win (or at least I hope so, as if Jeremy Corbyn becomes Labour leader it would be disastrous for the party).

Bit surprised by that statement given your previous posts would have thought an ineffective Labour would be a wet dream for you.

[gravy]

And you think some other system would have given you a better result?

Yes.

At the least more representative than a regional seat does.

"If not UKIP then the SNP, or Greens, or Respect, would be in government,"

And why shouldn't they be ? If the vote represents the electorate then that's what the people want.



and btw....Respect ? No, UKIP and SNP yes.

And it'd obviously be better in that's its more representative of the nation's wishes.

Not an outcome I'd prefer but democracy isn't about pleasing me.

Pogo's definition of better seems to be "what I would like"

[VNVObit]

Not an outcome I'd prefer but democracy isn't about pleasing any particular individual.

FTFY it's not just you

wonder if they do decide on electoral reform will they ask "Would pogo approve?"

[Dio]

Right. Now's the time for people serious about PR to put up or shut up, because in the past I suspect these have mostly been relatively left wing parties, and now they have to accept that if they'd got what they wanted they'd be living with a shitload of UKIP right now.

I'm one of those people, and my enthusiasm for a better voting system has not wavered in the slightest. Distasteful though I might find the result.

(Frankly it's as simple as actually wanting a vote, since effectively right now I don't really have one).