Trump

[zip accident]

It can take a very long time.

However, with enough hysteria behind it, as in WW2, it can happen overnight. It would still probably turn out to be a very big mistake, but that didn't stop the process in WW2.

[gumboot]

Don't forget that the constitution is like the bible. Interpretation is twisted to fit one's own agenda.

[KlaxonCow]

Yes, except that the Supreme Court is the Pope of this particular Bible. Their entire job is to deal with Constitutional matters and if they say "this is the interpretation" then, legally, that is the interpretation. The politicians don't get to debate that, as the judicial branch of government is purposefully independent of its legislative and executive branches.

[zip accident]

Yes, except that the Supreme Court is the Pope of this particular Bible. Their entire job is to deal with Constitutional matters and if they say "this is the interpretation" then, legally, that is the interpretation. The politicians don't get to debate that, as the judicial branch of government is purposefully independent of its legislative and executive branches.

If the zeitgeist is a moral panic, the Supreme Court will get caught up in it, more slowly than most perhaps, but give them say six months and they'll get there.

There have been some very strange Popes over the millenia.

[gumboot]

Yes, except that the Supreme Court is the Pope of this particular Bible. Their entire job is to deal with Constitutional matters and if they say "this is the interpretation" then, legally, that is the interpretation. The politicians don't get to debate that, as the judicial branch of government is purposefully independent of its legislative and executive branches.

Seems they're a bit like the House of Lords in that they have a duty to say "no, that's bullishit" if the government tries something really, really outrageous.

[KlaxonCow]

Seems they're a bit like the House of Lords in that they have a duty to say "no, that's bullishit" if the government tries something really, really outrageous.

Basically, yes. Their system is loosely based off of ours and is similarly designed with anti-tyranny "checks and balances" throughout.

(It's essentially the standard solution to the "who watches the watchmen?" problem: you make them all watch each other in a circle. The snake eats its own tail. Watchmen A watches Watchmen B, who watches Watchmen C, who watches Watchmen A again. Thereby, they are all watching and being watched.)

If the zeitgeist is a moral panic, the Supreme Court will get caught up in it, more slowly than most perhaps, but give them say six months and they'll get there.

There have been some very strange Popes over the millenia.

Indeed. But, fact is, if any country reaches such a zeitgeist of intensely irrational moral panic, then all bets are off anyway.

Because if your response to us saying "it's illegal" is "but what if they start ignoring the law?" then, sure, it could happen, but you're talking about the breakdown of social order itself. Hey, they might all pick up their guns and have another revolution. Pull out the guillotines and start chopping people's heads off. But, by then, it's mob rule and all bets are off. No-one can predict what'll happen then.

I just don't feel Trump could ever be such a catalyst, though.

(But, granted, I will concede that when I watch the footage of Hitler at the Nuremberg rallies - and I do know some German to be able to very loosely follow what he's saying - then he just looks like a big shouty idiot having an arm-flailing tantrum to me. I just can't see this supposed "hypnotism" and charm he's supposed to have on the crowds. This alleged "great orator". Doesn't work for me in the slightest. So, you know, perhaps I'm just a horrible judge of what other people find "convincing" and you shouldn't be listening to my instincts on this at all.)

[gumboot]

The notion that Hitler was casting magical spells over people is probably just a shit rationalisation for the fact that actually a lot of people are innate arseholes and take the opportunities they're given to live up to that.

Trump doesn't have to encourage people to be arseholes. He just has to make it more acceptable. And it's not such a big step, because the US is already alarmingly close.

[snaff]

[guythp]

(But, granted, I will concede that when I watch the footage of Hitler at the Nuremberg rallies - and I do know some German to be able to very loosely follow what he's saying - then he just looks like a big shouty idiot having an arm-flailing tantrum to me. I just can't see this supposed "hypnotism" and charm he's supposed to have on the crowds. This alleged "great orator". Doesn't work for me in the slightest. So, you know, perhaps I'm just a horrible judge of what other people find "convincing" and you shouldn't be listening to my instincts on this at all.)

Different circumstances there though, innit? Germany was in a bit of a lull at the time and... Hang on, is this the first time Hitler's been mentioned in this thread?... What's internet rule does that fall under again?

I don't think Trump is anything to worry about, but then I don't live in the US (and what do I know?).

I still chuckle that his surname is another word for a fart.. No wonder looks so angry some of the time.

[gumboot]

Germany was in a bit of a lull at the time and... Hang on, is this the first time Hitler's been mentioned in this thread?... What's internet rule does that fall under again?

The one about if you can imagine it then the internet has it pornography featuring it?

[Mat]

Hang on, is this the first time Hitler's been mentioned in this thread?... What's internet rule does that fall under again?

Godwin's Law.

The one about if you can imagine it then the internet has it pornography featuring it?

Nope, that's Rule 34.

[pogo]

Yes, except that the Supreme Court is the Pope of this particular Bible. Their entire job is to deal with Constitutional matters and if they say "this is the interpretation" then, legally, that is the interpretation. The politicians don't get to debate that, as the judicial branch of government is purposefully independent of its legislative and executive branches.

Yes. Except unlike the Pope they are not infallible. They are in theory above politics, serving for life, never having to stand for election, not subject to recall if politicians don’t like their judgement. But at the same time they are very political. They are appointed for life by presidents who to a greater or lesser extent appoint people with similar political leanings. And their judgements are often very political. Not only do they rule directly on laws but many laws are challenged through the courts and end up at the Supreme Court.

The court is finely balanced at the moment, often coming down on one side of the political argument or the other. This makes the next election particularly important, for the court’s make-up. Whoever wins is likely to get to appoint one or two new justices, to replace retiring ones, and in doing so decisively swing the balance one way or the other.

[PumaG]

The notion that Hitler was casting magical spells over people is probably just a shit rationalisation for the fact that actually a lot of people are innate arseholes and take the opportunities they're given to live up to that.

I gather the state of Germany after WW1 was quite complex. Hitler was initially able to gain support from people who felt humiliated and felt the Jews were to blame for losing the war. All too easy to write those people off as 'arseholes' just as it was for the upper classes and academics in Germany to dangerously write Hitler off as only being Mad.
IIRC Hitler was also able to take advantage of the 'arseholes' impoverished by the great depression.
Then there were the 'innate arseholes' fighting the Communists.

[gumboot]

Hitler was initially able to gain support from people who felt humiliated and felt the Jews were to blame for losing the war. All too easy to write those people off as 'arseholes' just as it was for the upper classes and academics in Germany to dangerously write Hitler off as only being Mad.

You see, you say it like that and it sounds exactly like how people blame Muslims for 9/11 and how Trump behaves like a raving fuckwad.

In a handful of decades, after Holocaust 2, history will have it that an eloquent and charismatic Trump hypnotized otherwise perfectly rational people into behaving the way that they did.

[KlaxonCow]

No, no. Now you've breached Godwin's Law. You made the comparison.

We technically weren't in breach of Godwin's Law up until you compared Trump to Hitler. We were just discussing Hitler and that's allowed. You're allowed to mention Hitler and the Nazis, you see, if they're directly the topic of conversation. That's not a fallacious comparison, it's just discussing history.

But you had to go say the "Trump is literally Hitler!!" thing and ruin it all. Disappointing.