Playstation VR

[gilesgoat]

Anyway about pricing and such in this case it's really a bit "you get what you paid for"

Sure you can do something for a bit less, but the experience won't be the best.

That is true but this Sony console is mass market and they should be looking at a mass market price to get everyone onside not just a few niche early tech adopters.

Well I suppose/I hope "they made their computations right" .. must be said surprises me a bit too if that's really going to be the price, said that Sony NEVER told to anyone ( I don't think many knew at all given the really high level of 'privacy' they have ) how much that price was going to be ( and as far as I know I haven't heard any official thing as well ).

I don't know either if "it really is/was a mass market move" or if it's anyway taken into consideration that "at least for a while won't be so mass market" .. I really don't know but a thing I am sure ( or at least really hope ) is they must have studied all this stuff pretty well.

If there's a thing I could say in what I've seen in all this time is that Sony been VERY CAUTIOUS ( even 'too much' ) during every single step of all this, I know that Sony wants to be "as much sure as they can" they are doing "the right moves".

I am quite sure that if they could make it cost less ( and maybe in some near future they will ? ) they would have done it, there must be factors that make lowering the price really hard.

I mean think about it, even Gear VR the moment you put "a decent phone in" costs more or less like that BUT I can tell you "you are nowhere near getting similar kind of performance" I mean yes you CAN do "some little nice stuff" but it's LITTLE nice stuff NOT too complex, not something you can also spend N hours playing because then the battery soon goes off.

Yes is still "modern tech" .. however I think "the price is NOT super bad" if you really "buy into" and you like it, it's well worth what you pay for.

If you would have told me "that price for DK1" I would have said NO FUCKING WAY !

If you would have told me "for DK2 ?" .. NO FUCKING WAY it's too much !

But for Morpheus I see now .. I could say "hum .. MAYBE 100 pounds less would be better BUT I would NOT compromise ANYTHING of it for 100 pounds less otherwise I'd rather bite the bullet and keep it as it is".

I've seen prototypes ( almost ALL of them ) with this & that .. "if you cut corners is not the same thing" .. so yes I could say "would be nice if a bit cheaper" but NOT without anything less than what it has.

So what to say well .. it is a lovely piece of HW sure .. it is a bit expensive sure .. but you really get what you paid for.

[RiK]

Said that as a piece of HW by its own I can say that Morpheus is really LOVELY and DO NOT FORGET THE 120 Hz !

No denying it's a lovely piece of kit Giles, but the key thing with VR is that it's still very, *very* niche in anyone's book. To have even the remotest chance of attracting mass market appeal it's got to be either really cheap enough to be an impulse buy, or there has to be an absolutely killer application that can't be solved elsewhere.

For the vast majority of console owners, suggesting that a peripheral which can only be used by one person, for a very specialist and small number of games is going to cost more than the console they're using it with is frankly ridiculous.

If it's too expensive, it'll only remain a niche product, and without users to warrant the development costs and you're very firmly in chicken & egg territory.

I can see the appeal to a small dev team like Llamasoft, because your operating expenses are tiny compared to a large studio, so if there are only limited games available, most of the users who do go for VR will probably support your game. But, at the silly money prices required for people to get into VR (on any platform) I can't help but feel that the user base isn't going to grow at anything like the rate that's going to support AAA games investment needed for mass-market appeal.

[Whiteball]

Good VR isn't all about the games though. I know most people, and probably more so, console owners will be thinking games, games, game but there are a lot of potential game (no pun intended) changers here.
Movies
Photos
Travel experiences
Education
etc.

[Bod]

At this point I am very very curious to see what the Valve thing is going to cost .. at this point "the bet" is "probably the same as the others" ( if not even more ) .

Quote ...

According to HTC connected products marketing executive director, Jeff Gattis, the Vive will reportedly target the “high end” of the consumer market, delivering a “premium VR experience”. This will, he says, mean a higher initial entry price for early adopters.

“Starting with the premium experience, even if it has a slightly higher price point, is the right thing to do from a strategic point of view. The price can always come down as the market grows. We know there is some pent-up demand there, so there’s not so much price sensitivity early on.”

How much that ‘slightly higher price point’ equates to is, at this stage, anyone’s guess. However, considering the best estimates for the Oculus Rift and PlayStation VR launch prices are currently around £300 to £400, we’d imagine this would place the Vive somewhere in the region of £500 at launch.

If this is a touch more than you’re happy with, fear not: Gattis has also said that he expects the cost to eventually decrease, stating that “to get the broader consumer adoption we’re all hoping for, the industry will have to drive price down to make it more accessible”.

[gilesgoat]

Said that as a piece of HW by its own I can say that Morpheus is really LOVELY and DO NOT FORGET THE 120 Hz !

No denying it's a lovely piece of kit Giles, but the key thing with VR is that it's still very, *very* niche in anyone's book. To have even the remotest chance of attracting mass market appeal it's got to be either really cheap enough to be an impulse buy, or there has to be an absolutely killer application that can't be solved elsewhere.

For the vast majority of console owners, suggesting that a peripheral which can only be used by one person, for a very specialist and small number of games is going to cost more than the console they're using it with is frankly ridiculous.

If it's too expensive, it'll only remain a niche product, and without users to warrant the development costs and you're very firmly in chicken & egg territory.

I can see the appeal to a small dev team like Llamasoft, because your operating expenses are tiny compared to a large studio, so if there are only limited games available, most of the users who do go for VR will probably support your game. But, at the silly money prices required for people to get into VR (on any platform) I can't help but feel that the user base isn't going to grow at anything like the rate that's going to support AAA games investment needed for mass-market appeal.

I could only say you may be right but "it has to begin someway" .. I don't think you can make "anything really that new" begin "in the perfect way", I mean "if it would cost 100 pounds we would not be talking at all here you'd already have one".

But I think it's not just a matter of tech is also ( as you kinda say ) "a matter of SW and stuff" ..

Thing is .. "what do you do ?" .. you wait 10 more years for what ? You continue to develop "underground in background" with little to no "real consumer feedback" ?

I guess at some point you need a bit of "a leap of faith" and see how it goes.

AT LEAST this time "potentially the HW is pretty right on the spot" .. "delivers what it promises to deliver" .. it does work.

I think it's a bit of a shame/problem of this time exactly the "AAA" and "super mass" .. you get to a point certain things "cannot be done" if they are not "super mass" and that in itself is A HUGE problem, because there is LOT of really nice stuff that NEVER will be "super mass" and yet is worth doing.

Who knows .. maybe this is really "the niche/the edge" for small companies like LS where "give us just a bit we can afford to develop weird shit" .. and in a way this is precisely part of our strength too and "more than valid reason never to get bigger", sure we can't make those "AAA" things but PRECISELY we CAN make what those big studios can't.

To be honest "type of work speaking" I'd rather aim to be something like "The West Coast Customs of SW" rather than "the huge studio making AAA titles" as in "this is psychedelic strange/weird/bananez stuff that maybe will appeal 1/100.000 of the market" .. BUT .. "it's super bananez psychedelic shit"

Said that, I "have to add" also that "shit happens for various things" and for "incredibly mundane and shitty things" you end up in having to find out and pay money MUCH MUCH MORE THAN A 599 pounds for a Morpheus/OR and THEN it's when you say yourself FUCK THAT WE LIVE ONLY ONCE

Do I give ( much ) of a shit about 599 pounds for a Morpheus ... no THAT much .. my MRIs scans already costed me over that including all the other costs .. I can fucking spend 599 and at least I could say "I love every second of it"

[Jamesac]

Placeholder price for the listing. PSVR won't cost that much.

No idea how much it will cost, and honestly I don't have any more verification that it won't be $1125 than anyone else, but you can tell just by thinking for a minute it won't be $1125. Sony knows as well as anyone else that, no matter how nice the hardware is, it simply wouldn't sell.

[RiK]

Who knows .. maybe this is really "the niche/the edge" for small companies like LS where "give us just a bit we can afford to develop weird shit" .. and in a way this is precisely part of our strength too and "more than valid reason never to get bigger", sure we can't make those "AAA" things but PRECISELY we CAN make what those big studios can't.

To be honest "type of work speaking" I'd rather aim to be something like "The West Coast Customs of SW" rather than "the huge studio making AAA titles" as in "this is psychedelic strange/weird/bananez stuff that maybe will appeal 1/100.000 of the market" .. BUT .. "it's super bananez psychedelic shit"

Obviously I agree with that bit, hence my previous comment..

[RiK]

Sony knows as well as anyone else that, no matter how nice the hardware is, it simply wouldn't sell.

Console owners generally have a different mindset to hardcore PC gamers. If it costs more than the console itself I can't see many people even giving it a second glance.

[Dio]

But that's the point I've made before that they have to sell this thing completely differently. It is not a peripheral, it's a completely new platform. Either they can sell the platform or they won't sell that peripheral.

There's no option for trying to make it a peripheral, it's simply too expensive. And except for a restricted class of games (and not a large class, probably down in single digits in terms of unit sales) you need to construct different games for this thing.

It could be a peripheral, if we were in an alternate universe where you could take 90%+ of games and stick them straight into VR and get all the benefits without getting out the barf bags, and if the mfgs were prepared to eat huge costs (since even parity with the console price would mean them eating so much money on each unit, and as everyone says, that is still way too much for a peripheral). But we ain't.

Therefore they have to change perceptions. Or the market's a couple of million units tops, probably smaller, and the AAA guys can't come and play. Of course, we can argue what the advantages of that might be... this could be a platform for genuine innovation, formed by hardcore users who are prepared to search a bit more (and pay for) the experiences and served by lightweight, more agile devs who don't need to ship 10 million units to turn a profit. Whether VR people will be prepared to pay the £10 prices that will be needed to subsidise good software in a small market for much less than AAA quality will be an interesting question.

But when it comes to the hardware it is really now more of a marketing challenge than a technical one. The technical problems have been solved but they're dictating a significant price. (One that in the PC market even a few years ago wouldn't have been considered that extreme though). And hell, this is only the start, to do VR properly you need to spend a lot more money, really....

(One other possible slight underlying point is that this console generation is rather different to previous ones because it is so low-powered compared to the PC competition; had Sony and Microsoft aimed to launch at the top end of the PC market rather than in the midrange there would be more options for the consoles on the VR side, and the price balance between console and headset would have looked better?)

[gilesgoat]

But that's the point I've made before that they have to sell this thing completely differently. It is not a peripheral, it's a completely new platform. Either they can sell the platform or they won't sell that peripheral.

Could we argue/agree/suppose on the fact that PS4 + Morpheus = "VR System" not just "console + funky device" ?

Because essentially "that's what you get" .. you could sell it as a "bundle" but as you say later and I agree still the price is going to be a bit high.

There's no option for trying to make it a peripheral, it's simply too expensive. And except for a restricted class of games (and not a large class, probably down in single digits in terms of unit sales) you need to construct different games for this thing.

But "depends how you see it" .. from one side "it is ad an add" .. form the other side if you'd sell let's say ( even the OR / Vibe ) "bundled together with a capable PC / stuff and you are going to call it 'The VR System' " isn't it what you say should be ?

It could be a peripheral, if we were in an alternate universe where you could take 90%+ of games and stick them straight into VR and get all the benefits without getting out the barf bags, and if the mfgs were prepared to eat huge costs (since even parity with the console price would mean them eating so much money on each unit, and as everyone says, that is still way too much for a peripheral). But we ain't.

Well I think is EXTREMELY CLEAR now that's is NOT THE CASE .. that to do VR "it HAS TO PLANNED AND STUDIED AND DONE FOR VR" ..

HOWEVER I DARE to say that "if you do like that you CAN have with little extra" a GOOD NON-VR game as well, the reverse is NOT true.

Therefore they have to change perceptions. Or the market's a couple of million units tops, probably smaller, and the AAA guys can't come and play.

But this is "the curse and the limit of AAA" and in a way "thanks Goat is like that !" .. AAA are themselves "very limited and closed in the world they created" .. I think it's finally (?) time to start thinking/re-thinking that "the world CANNOT/SHOULD never be a place for ONLY AAA" .. because you see where it gets and the limits it creates.

Of course, we can argue what the advantages of that might be... this could be a platform for genuine innovation, formed by hardcore users who are prepared to search a bit more (and pay for) the experiences and served by lightweight, more agile devs who don't need to ship 10 million units to turn a profit.

That MUST BE ( innovation ) , I HOPE IT WILL BE and it's kinda what we are aiming at, "something that does not need to be sold in the realm of millions to make something" also "true innovation and exploration of new things"

Whether VR people will be prepared to pay the £10 prices that will be needed to subsidise good software in a small market for much less than AAA quality will be an interesting question.

I think there's a chance, I think that if you are into VR and you want VR and you get stuff that is nice even if not "enormous AAA" you will pay for it.

IT IS TIME NOW FOR ALL THE GOOD MEN TO COME AND HELP THE SMALLER DEVELOPERS AND STOP LOOKING AT THE TOO CHEAP SW ON THE HUGE STORES

Really enough of this mentality "all cheaper all mega numbers" .. medium, original, innovative, fair price for you & me , Quality in Small boxes.

"Buy less but buy better".

But when it comes to the hardware it is really now more of a marketing challenge than a technical one. The technical problems have been solved but they're dictating a significant price. (One that in the PC market even a few years ago wouldn't have been considered that extreme though). And hell, this is only the start, to do VR properly you need to spend a lot more money, really....

Agree .. but so if you want a really nice car, a proper sporty boat, a nice set of clothes and shoes, some really good food, anything really made "properly" not with just "cheaper and millions" in mind.

It's not the thing you buy everyday, it's not the thing you use and throw away after a little, it's the thing you cherish and keep using for long time.

Enough of all this "Tesco mentality" ..

[gilesgoat]

@Dio and speaking about this :

(One other possible slight underlying point is that this console generation is rather different to previous ones because it is so low-powered compared to the PC competition; had Sony and Microsoft aimed to launch at the top end of the PC market rather than in the midrange there would be more options for the consoles on the VR side, and the price balance between console and headset would have looked better?)

Can you fucking STOP please in making constantly NEW stuff ? Can you make ONE thing stand for at least 5 years before to make a totally new one and maybe use the 5 years to work with more calm and come out with something really "more new" after 5 ( while listening to all feedbacks of developers ) ?

I have more than enough to get TOTALLY NUTS programming PS4 and could have even 10 more years to learn it better .. at this rate "none but maybe you alone" could ever know how that HW works "completely" .. and "the rest of the world" is probably just going to wait for the next Unity plugin "that does all by magic".

[Dio]

The tide will continue to come in.

[gilesgoat]

The tide will continue to come in.

But will you find people/developers buying into it ?

[pogo]

But that's the point I've made before that they have to sell this thing completely differently. It is not a peripheral, it's a completely new platform. Either they can sell the platform or they won't sell that peripheral.

Then maybe the problem is with expectations. It is being sold like a peripheral; you need a main PC or games console to use it. And the consensus before launch is it would be priced like one; maybe an expensive one but still a peripheral in the $200 – $300 price bracket. Where did people get this information? The original Kickstarter for one; the founder for another who only a few months ago was saying it would cost “in [the] ballpark” of $350. The products that are available such now, Samsung’s Gear VR and Google cardboard, are even cheaper.

So maybe 2016 is not the year of VR after all, or at least not the year it moves from being a niche product to mass market. Or if it does it won’t be Rift or PS VR that does it: something cheaper based on a phone or tablet perhaps. Prices like this are just too high and the market might not be prepared to wait for Oculus to solve their cost and volume issues.

[Dio]

I meant, new stuff will keep coming.

Unless in 2022-25 silicon runs out and we haven't got a replacement of course. Bit nervous that date's been in my head for 10 years now and it isn't receding towards my retirement.