Trump

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PumaG
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Re: Trump

Post by PumaG »

pogo wrote:
PumaG wrote:Complete bollocks. Even as a comedy clown mascot London Mayor, Boris is not going to be observing or caring about Obama's skin colour.
Boris was already having a pop at Obama the other week about Obama being hypocritical, can you show your formula on how that was also racist? or designed to appeal to racists? or did Boris become racist over night and completely forget the culture of the city he is Mayor of?
Bringing up his Kenyan ancestry when it’s entirely irrelevant is racist. Even worse is suggesting that Obama is anti-British because of it and Britain’s colonial legacy, for which there is not a shred of evidence.

The best comparison is with the Birther movement, the attempt to prove that Obama was born outside the US. The odd thing about it was that many Americans have one or even two foreign parents. Many are born outside the US, not least Ted Cruz. Obama was not and had one US parent.

So why pick on Obama? Because he is Black, and a large proportion of Americans believed and still believe a Black person cannot be president, for racist reasons. What’s notable about the Birther movement was there was never a shred of evidence for it. But that did not matter as it started with the assumption that Obama was a fraud, then tried to find evidence. It only had legs as so many people were willing to believe it, for racist reasons.

It probably explains why Trump ran, and why he has run the campaign he has. He saw how popular his Birther movement had become and decided to channel the same attitudes into a presidential run.
Are you 100% sure they would only ever and will only ever do that to someone who is Black?

Will America be a Utopian society when Whites are in the minority in 3 decades?

Obama wants Britain in the EU for Nuclear weapon reasons, nothing else.
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pogo
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Re: Trump

Post by pogo »

PumaG wrote:Are you 100% sure they would only ever and will only ever do that to someone who is Black?

Will America be a Utopian society when Whites are in the minority in 3 decades?
I doubt it will be utopian, but it will I hope be a much better place once nativism stops being such a dominant force in politics. Racial discrimination is a particular problem in the US, much more so than in other developed countries.

So 100% sure it will never happen to someone else, non-Black? No, you cannot be sure. But if America moves beyond its current racial animosity then something like the Birther campaign, where a campaign with no evidence is sustained largely by its supporters’ racism, should not happen again.
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Re: Trump

Post by PumaG »

"Something mysterious happened when Barack Obama entered the Oval Office in 2009.

Something vanished from that room, and no one could quite explain why.

It was a bust of Winston Churchill – the great British war time leader. It was a fine goggle-eyed object, done by the brilliant sculptor Jacob Epstein, and it had sat there for almost ten years.

But on day one of the Obama administration it was returned, without ceremony, to the British embassy in Washington.

No one was sure whether the President had himself been involved in the decision.

Some said it was a snub to Britain. Some said it was a symbol of the part-Kenyan President’s ancestral dislike of the British empire – of which Churchill had been such a fervent defender.

Some said that perhaps Churchill was seen as less important than he once was. Perhaps his ideas were old-fashioned and out of date.

Well, if that’s why Churchill was banished from the Oval Office, they could not have been more wrong.


What was he fighting for, in the Second World War? Why did he work so hard for the American entry into the war?

Yes, he was fighting for British survival; but he was also fighting against the dictatorships for democracy in Europe – for the right of the people to choose who makes their laws, and to kick them out at elections.

At the very heart of Winston Churchill’s political beliefs was what he saw as the supreme right of every voter, with his or her little pencil, to decide who governs the country."




In context, I still dont see how it has anything to do with being Black. Boris naturally has a problem with Barack joining the 'stay campaign' this piece from his written article, centers on the empire and churchill (due to those rumours Obama threw out the bust of churchill) he's made the link by pointing out Obama is part-kenyan. Which is the bit that unnecessarily offends. Obama could be Kenyan yet also white or Indian, Boris's attack would still be relevant.

Boris is not so stupid not to know full well that Obama is purely looking after America's own interests (why wouldn't they and when have they not?)
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pogo
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Re: Trump

Post by pogo »

“almost ten years”. You know why that is? Every president gets to redecorate the Whitehouse. It always looks the same in films and on TV but that’s as it has such distinctive architecture. Much of innards get remodelled every four or eight years, including the contents of the Oval Office. They have significant resources to draw on, including loans from museums and private collections.

So the bust of Winston must have been installed by Bush Jr. Hardly a long lasting tradition. Obama came in and installed something else that meant more to him. Not at all mysterious. Again, Boris Johnson is not stupid and is probably very aware of such details of American politics. He is just hoping his readers don’t, and so will believe Obama is secretly anti-British.
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Re: Trump

Post by gumboot »

(o)(o) wrote:Ali G is actually a white. It's Sasha Baron Cohen, the actor who played Boris. Nor was he attacked for having dark skin, his progarm was widely shown on British T.V.
I never realised that Boris Johnson was created by Sacha Baron Cohen.

That doesn't mean it's Ok to compare him with Trump, though. I don't think SBC could ever come up with something that ridiculous.
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Re: Trump

Post by PumaG »

pogo wrote:“almost ten years”. You know why that is? Every president gets to redecorate the Whitehouse. It always looks the same in films and on TV but that’s as it has such distinctive architecture. Much of innards get remodelled every four or eight years, including the contents of the Oval Office. They have significant resources to draw on, including loans from museums and private collections.

So the bust of Winston must have been installed by Bush Jr. Hardly a long lasting tradition. Obama came in and installed something else that meant more to him. Not at all mysterious. Again, Boris Johnson is not stupid and is probably very aware of such details of American politics. He is just hoping his readers don’t, and so will believe Obama is secretly anti-British.

I dont believe this version of the 'bust story', but he hasn't made it up because Obama is Black.
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Re: Trump

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It's dog whistle racism, pretty much exactly the same as Trump engages in. Not directly racist but appealing to racists. Like claiming Mexican immigrants are rapists or not condemning David Duke when you know full well who he is.

The difference between Johnson and Trump is Johnson will be regretting this. It's a gaffe and not helpful to his leadership bid. That's all he cares about and I doubt you'll see him doubling down on what he's said as Trump would.

Hey PumaG are you equally splenetic about accusations of anit-semiticism in a segment of the left in the UK?

Just trying to work out why you're so clearly insane. Is it people to quick to label others as racist or leftist idiots? Curious to see what your opinion on the right calling leftist idiots racists would be.
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Re: Trump

Post by pogo »

Not that it matters but Obama has confirmed he did remove the Churchill bust from the Oval Office. And replaced it with one of Martin Luther King. Quite understandable I think. The Churchill one was a loan to Bush, the decoration of the White House being very much a personal matter for the president.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016 ... chill-bust

Except there is another bust of Churchill still at the White House, in the residency, which they have had for much longer, and may have caused some confusion when people have asked if they still have a/the Churchill bust.
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Re: Trump

Post by Dio »

If you want we can also discuss the aspects of Churchill's career that (despite his undoubtedly having had a very good war) need a bit of glossing over to generate true reverence. Indeed there's a strong argument that he's over-respected in the US, more so than he is here since we know more about the background (it's probably because of his close links to there of course).

But I hope that's not necessary, since everyone knows about those, right?
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Re: Trump

Post by KlaxonCow »

An interesting point that I caught someone else making was that Obama said the UK would be "back of the queue" for a trade deal.

But Americans don't say "queue", they say "line".

Now, of course, that could just be Obama doing the translation for us - "when in Rome, speak Roman" - but, generally, American leaders don't ever do this as a rule because, one, they know they simply don't have to, as everyone comprehends "American". And, two, the diplomatic rule that says never risk using the local lingo, in case you get it wrong and offend, or just come across as patronising. Plus, in this particular case, it'd be an odd word to insist upon translating anyway, because it's not as if Brits don't also say "back of the line" sometimes too.

Or the other interpretation is that the UK government fed him the line - "hey, Obama, tell them that Britain would end up at the back of the queue, yes?" - and he just followed that script a bit too closely, betraying by the word choice that it was a speaker of International English, not American English, who actually penned that line.


(Sorry, after hitting "submit" on this, I realise that maybe this ought to be in the politics thread, rather than the Trump thread, as it's more about Obama and the EU. I got confused by all this talk of Obama and Boris over here. I can't delete - only edit - to move it there myself now, though, due to the forum rules.)
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Re: Trump

Post by pogo »

Have you never done that yourself? Whether in another country or another region, it’s easy to fall into using local words and phrases that are different from the ones you grew up with. It must be especially easy for Americans in Britain and vice-versa, as there’s so much commerce, so much TV, so many films. Plus there are very few differences, so few that anyone paying attention could easily ensure they got it right on the other side of the Atlantic to where they learned English.

I can’t see there being a diplomatic rule against speaking English that people will understand. The whole point of language is communication, and diplomacy is all about communication. The French I can see insisting on sticking to “proper French” as they are sticklers for language correctness. But English speakers? We don’t care.
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Re: Trump

Post by KlaxonCow »

pogo wrote:I can’t see there being a diplomatic rule against speaking English that people will understand.
It does exist as an unwritten rule. I've heard politicians explicitly talk about it before.

It's not so much about understanding, as cultural sensitivities. Lacking what the Germans call "Sprachgefühl" - literally "language feeling" - it's not so much about using what are technically the right words, as getting the whole surrounding cultural context of the language correct too.

Like if David Cameron went to the South and started using "y'all". Sure, technically correct, as it's just the explicitly plural "you". So, indeed, how are y'all doing? But there are cultural layers to everything and you'd have to be careful in its usage. You don't want to make it look like you're a white foreign guy trying to speak in Ebonics - which could come across if, say, most of your audience is black when you say it. You don't want to come across as a patronising arsehole. Certain words, in the wrong time and place, can quickly become a minefield.

Witness, for example, Hillary mentioning in an interview that she always carries a bottle of hot sauce with her. There have been accusations flying that, as she was doing this interview on "black" radio, that she was trying to pander to black voters.

Thing is, the BBC covered this in an article where they pulled up other articles - from years ago - where the fact that Hillary really does carry around a bottle of hot sauce, as she really does apparently like things spicy, has been covered. She didn't just make it up to appeal to black voters. It's apparently just true. She's a hot sauce fiend, so much so that she carries her own bottle to ensure it's always on hand for any occasion.

Diplomacy is not communication. Communication is communication. Diplomacy is the shrewd and subtle use of that communication to best effect.

Basically, if you think this shit ain't important and doesn't matter, then you're in for a whole world of hurt in the realm of politics.

Indeed, bringing this back to Trump, he's actually a perfectly good communicator. What he's atrocious at is diplomacy. There is, to be fair, plenty of room for interpretation and understanding in what Trump says that not all of it really is necessarily half as bad as it seems. But it's not just what he says, but the way he says it.

You might come back at me there, though, with the fact that Trump gets away with it. But that's a different dynamic. He basically gets away with it, because he so atrociously lacks any grace or diplomacy, it helps with the "not part of the establishment" image he's got that, at the moment, people are responding to because the establishment has fucked us all over and let us down (across the board, but the Banking Crisis is the most obvious inflexion point of where the public's trust of the establishment collapsed that they're now seeking alternatives).

He's actually doing well with those people, exactly because he is so fucking atrociously bad at diplomacy. It says "not establishment" loud and proud. It's because he's so dreadful at it that they like him. Proves his credentials, they feel.

(Though, really, it is objectively rather ridiculous logic. He's a billionaire businessman. In various ways, he's more "corporate establishment" than anyone else there. But his cack-handedness in even the most basic levels of diplomacy actually serves to blind and blinker people from noticing that if your intent is to "stick it to the establishment" then that's Sanders, not Trump.)
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Re: Trump

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pogo wrote:“almost ten years”. You know why that is? Every president gets to redecorate the Whitehouse. It always looks the same in films and on TV but that’s as it has such distinctive architecture. Much of innards get remodelled every four or eight years, including the contents of the Oval Office. They have significant resources to draw on, including loans from museums and private collections.

So the bust of Winston must have been installed by Bush Jr. Hardly a long lasting tradition. Obama came in and installed something else that meant more to him. Not at all mysterious. Again, Boris Johnson is not stupid and is probably very aware of such details of American politics. He is just hoping his readers don’t, and so will believe Obama is secretly anti-British.
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Re: Trump

Post by merman »

Boris Johnson once called Africans "flag-waving picanninies with watermelon smiles".

He is racist.
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Re: Trump

Post by gumboot »

If people joke about my ancestral dislike for the British Empire, is that racist?
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