Trump

[(o)(o)]

This is a much bigger problem than just some businessmen getting rich - for, wait for it... creating a profitable business! God forbid you get to keep all the bread you make. But hey, since they make 'enough' money, surely they owe an insane amount of their income to the government to further cripple their business and naturally take care of all the endless amount of people who could actually get a job but refuse to because it's really as easy as taking candy from a baby to get free support.

Are you talking about welfare as candy? Are you speaking from first hand experience? My understanding of welfare in teh US is it's a fucking nightmare and you've got homelessness on an insane scale for a wealthy, developed nation.

Maybe I'm reading you wrong but that sounds like a cynical, purely self-interested view of taxation. Why would someone who is rich not want to contribute back into society? Of course the American Dream is centred around the pursuit of avarice..

Before raving about how the amazing equality in the USA is compared to 20 years ago - how about acknowledging the USA is embedded with third world zones (check out the murder rates in Chiraq pogo-it gets its name for a reason) and 50 million people living in poverty.

[Neon360]

If you think 39.6% is high you should try living here. Not only is the top rate 45% but most people pay NI, VAT is 20%, fuel taxes and other duties are much higher. Overall we pay much more tax.

But the biggest nonsense in your reply is firms shifted manufacturing to China to escape high tax??? No, that has nothing to do with it. The reason people manufacture in China is it’s cheaper; wages are lower primarily. It’s nothing to do with high tax in the US, it’s a consequence of globalisation, of the lowering of trade barriers, and of China entering the WTO. It is happening globally, across rich and poor nations. Whether taxes are high or low in the US (and they are low) it makes no difference.

I don't need to try living there to experience what it's like to be fucked over, we have our own shit to sort out here. And so then you're shitting on my whole tax rate is too high overall because by default America pays less taxes than you do? That doesn't make it right. Good for you for paying more taxes and being ok with it but it's bullshit and I don't agree with it. If you're sour by it then fine, I would completely understand otherwise seriously, why the hell are you defending astronomical taxes. We don't have it magically better though.

You're serious about taxes not being a reason? Of course it's a reason, thus corporations wouldn't be looking to not only cut corners and ship all their shit overseas but also send our money to another country because every move we make is another 3 dimes they take. It's our fault for it happening. I'm not disagreeing that it doesn't happen everywhere else too because after empowering China to take over manufacturing completely, sure, of course it's cheaper there. That's our fault but that doesn't make it right. They also have shit conditions, which is also bad for everyone involved.

[zip accident]

If you think 39.6% is high you should try living here. Not only is the top rate 45% but most people pay NI, VAT is 20%, fuel taxes and other duties are much higher. Overall we pay much more tax.

But the biggest nonsense in your reply is firms shifted manufacturing to China to escape high tax??? No, that has nothing to do with it. The reason people manufacture in China is it’s cheaper; wages are lower primarily. It’s nothing to do with high tax in the US, it’s a consequence of globalisation, of the lowering of trade barriers, and of China entering the WTO. It is happening globally, across rich and poor nations. Whether taxes are high or low in the US (and they are low) it makes no difference.

I don't need to try living there to experience what it's like to be fucked over, we have our own shit to sort out here. And so then you're shitting on my whole tax rate is too high overall because by default America pays less taxes than you do? That doesn't make it right. Good for you for paying more taxes and being ok with it but it's bullshit and I don't agree with it. If you're sour by it then fine, I would completely understand otherwise seriously, why the hell are you defending astronomical taxes. We don't have it magically better though.

You're serious about taxes not being a reason? Of course it's a reason, thus corporations wouldn't be looking to not only cut corners and ship all their shit overseas but also send our money to another country because every move we make is another 3 dimes they take. It's our fault for it happening. I'm not disagreeing that it doesn't happen everywhere else too because after empowering China to take over manufacturing completely, sure, of course it's cheaper there. That's our fault but that doesn't make it right. They also have shit conditions, which is also bad for everyone involved.

They have shit wages, because the cost of living is lower, as does most of southeast asia. Africa does too, mostly, but they also have the Tsetse fly. When wages everywhere are the same, companies will manufacture stuff where they sell it, but not before.

[Neon360]

This is a much bigger problem than just some businessmen getting rich - for, wait for it... creating a profitable business! God forbid you get to keep all the bread you make. But hey, since they make 'enough' money, surely they owe an insane amount of their income to the government to further cripple their business and naturally take care of all the endless amount of people who could actually get a job but refuse to because it's really as easy as taking candy from a baby to get free support.

Are you talking about welfare as candy? Are you speaking from first hand experience? My understanding of welfare in teh US is it's a fucking nightmare and you've got homelessness on an insane scale for a wealthy, developed nation.

Maybe I'm reading you wrong but that sounds like a cynical, purely self-interested view of taxation. Why would someone who is rich not want to contribute back into society? Of course the American Dream is centred around the pursuit of avarice..

Before raving about how the amazing equality in the USA is compared to 20 years ago - how about acknowledging the USA is embedded with third world zones (check out the murder rates in Chiraq pogo-it gets its name for a reason) and 50 million people living in poverty.

Speaking from statistics and just seeing it - 42 million to 110 million a year. Yes, it's there for the taking and if you decide not to have a job then go on and collect. Why is it so ridiculously easy? It's a nightmare how, that it's completely out of control? Definitely. Every homeless person I've seen in the city is done so by choice and largely in part due to drugs, alcoholism but ultimately choice. There are plenty of shelters and development centers to help those in need yet people continue to make the decision not to because everyone is so giving and caring, the money just keeps trickling down to beggars because it's easy. You stand on the corner and make more money in a day (completely tax free mind you) than many people actually going to work and contributing to society. It's our own fault for enabling these parasites and just another part of the problem. Naturally there are rare exceptions to the rule but overall it's just a bunch of lazy, useless people who want a free handout.

I'm not saying completely remove tax as a whole obviously and I completely understand that if you're a billionaire with extreme or excess wealth, then sure, it's a different story but then I come back to why? Why must someone who is largely successful be penalized? and guess what, it's not working anyways. The American system is so broken and many business are already evading taxes legally by other means but on a much smaller scale.

So the mentality should be that if someone makes $4 million dollars then $2 million of their income should go to the government and every year? Ridiculous.

[pogo]

You're serious about taxes not being a reason? Of course it's a reason, thus corporations wouldn't be looking to not only cut corners and ship all their shit overseas but also send our money to another country because every move we make is another 3 dimes they take. It's our fault for it happening. I'm not disagreeing that it doesn't happen everywhere else too because after empowering China to take over manufacturing completely, sure, of course it's cheaper there. That's our fault but that doesn't make it right. They also have shit conditions, which is also bad for everyone involved.

You really do not have a clue. “our fault”? Fact is, globalisation is an overwhelming good, for all involved. For China it means rapidly improving incomes and standards of living. The best cure for shit conditions in China? Better paid workers with better opportunities who will expect and get better conditions.

It’s also good for developed economies. The benefits are less, as being developed they have less room to improve, but they are real. Globalisation makes many things cheaper, improving standards of living and giving people more to spend on other things. This extra income feeds into the economy, generating activity and jobs to replace those that went overseas. Expanded markets means the manufacturing that remains can grow and become global - the US has many global brands.

That’s why Trump’s talk of a trade war with China is so damaging, it threatens harm to the US as well as China. He does not believe it I‘m sure. His own businesses outsource manufacturing to China, he fully understands the benefits to US businesses and China. It’s just part of his con, another way he can appear tough and appeal to racist sentiments among his supporters.

[pogo]

I should note that some of what I described in my last post is broken in the US. Yes, globalisation has led to growth in the US. But the benefits have overwhelmingly gone to the top 1% (and among them most of the gains were made by the top 0.1%). The normal ways that wealth is shared around, such as the tax system, universal healthcare, high quality education, work much worse in the US than in e.g. Europe. Democrats recognise this, and would like to move towards a fairer more equitable system. But Republicans are offering nothing except fear and lies.

[Neon360]

You're serious about taxes not being a reason? Of course it's a reason, thus corporations wouldn't be looking to not only cut corners and ship all their shit overseas but also send our money to another country because every move we make is another 3 dimes they take. It's our fault for it happening. I'm not disagreeing that it doesn't happen everywhere else too because after empowering China to take over manufacturing completely, sure, of course it's cheaper there. That's our fault but that doesn't make it right. They also have shit conditions, which is also bad for everyone involved.

You really do not have a clue. “our fault”? Fact is, globalisation is an overwhelming good, for all involved. For China it means rapidly improving incomes and standards of living. The best cure for shit conditions in China? Better paid workers with better opportunities who will expect and get better conditions.

It’s also good for developed economies. The benefits are less, as being developed they have less room to improve, but they are real. Globalisation makes many things cheaper, improving standards of living and giving people more to spend on other things. This extra income feeds into the economy, generating activity and jobs to replace those that went overseas. Expanded markets means the manufacturing that remains can grow and become global - the US has many global brands.

That’s why Trump’s talk of a trade war with China is so damaging, it threatens harm to the US as well as China. He does not believe it I‘m sure. His own businesses outsource manufacturing to China, he fully understands the benefits to US businesses and China. It’s just part of his con, another way he can appear tough and appeal to racist sentiments among his supporters.

I have a clue because I live here. I see it daily. I've worked through it. I compare to what it was like 20 years as to what it's like now. It's shit.

Considering many people who work at Foxconn in China making products that should be made in America have killed themselves due to wages and working conditions and we're losing jobs in America because of said outsourcing is far from good for everyone involved. Yes, it's our fault. Business owners and the government are both responsible for it. Being a global brand and having manufacturing done in that region makes sense, outsourcing the entire operation 100% does not and is very bad as proven by the deaths and loss of jobs, the continued economic downfall of America and loss of manufacturing jobs as a whole on what we use to strive on.

Maybe you don't give a shit that it's killing America, but I do. Then again, I should. Though I suppose my option is to just move over and pay more taxes there. What a treat!

[gumboot]

The reason people manufacture in China is it’s cheaper; wages are lower primarily.

Regulation is looser, too. In the developed world you're hobbled by environmental and working condition regulation which you just don't have to bother about at all in China. You can ask about it and you'll be lied to and then you can repeat that lie to your consumers "in good faith". Job done.

[F-ZeroOne]

"Speaking to the New York Times, Mr Trump said the US would only come to the aid of allies if they have "fulfilled their obligations to us"."

"He also suggested he would close US bases abroad. "If we decide we have to defend the United States, we can always deploy" from American soil, he said "and it will be a lot less expensive".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36852805

Deploying his incredible grasp of international relationships, military tactics and logistics there again.

Meanwhile, the Republican Party platform supposedly contains this little gem:

"We support the ability of all organizations to provide, purchase, or enroll in healthcare coverage consistent with their religious, moral, or ethical convictions without discrimination or penalty. We support the right of parents to determine the proper medical treatment and therapy for their minor children."

Or, in other words, welcome to Happy Measles Fun Time kids!

[pogo]

The reason people manufacture in China is it’s cheaper; wages are lower primarily.

Regulation is looser, too. In the developed world you're hobbled by environmental and working condition regulation which you just don't have to bother about at all in China. You can ask about it and you'll be lied to and then you can repeat that lie to your consumers "in good faith". Job done.

It is, but that is not a significant factor, compared to wage costs. And the best cure for looser regulations? Higher wages and standards of living. As, the same as happened here, as people’s standards of living improve they start to notice things like the environment, working conditions. The growing middle class in China is the biggest driving force for environmental improvement.

[k345y]

The growing middle class in China is the biggest driving force for environmental improvement.

How?

[Darkflame]

This is a much bigger problem than just some businessmen getting rich - for, wait for it... creating a profitable business! God forbid you get to keep all the bread you make. But hey, since they make 'enough' money, surely they owe an insane amount of their income to the government to further cripple their business and naturally take care of all the endless amount of people who could actually get a job but refuse to because it's really as easy as taking candy from a baby to get free support.

Are you talking about welfare as candy? Are you speaking from first hand experience? My understanding of welfare in teh US is it's a fucking nightmare and you've got homelessness on an insane scale for a wealthy, developed nation.

Worth remembering half of all bankruptcies is due to medical costs in the US.

America seems to be obsessed with the idea that a big stick is needed for getting anyone to do anything. People will ""refuse to get a job"" if you, like, guaranty their health or a roof over their head. Because all anyone seeks from life is the bare necessities to live, obviously. Whats the point of a job if you get a bit of food eh?

Also, sarcasm aside, trickle down economics hasn't a shred of evidence to support it. Its wishful thinking, a convenient lie people tell themselves so they can feel better. But no, cutting taxes for the rich does not help everyone. A poor person will spend a higher percentage of their income (because they have too), so economic stimulation is proportionately more from the larger groups. A 1% buying a new boat every few years doesn't offset this.

[Dio]

So the mentality should be that if someone makes $4 million dollars then $2 million of their income should go to the government and every year? Ridiculous.

Why is arbitrary number A that different from arbitrary number B?

In the end it's still a case of "You make more money, you get more money in your pocket". (Unless the tax system is severely broken). So it can't be 'ridiculous' unless you're arguing with the very concept of taxation itself (and hopefully it's obvious why taxation is required, although there do seem to be some extraordinarily dim Americans who don't understand the value of socialising services like education, roads, police, fire, health etc.)

Interesting you hold up China as an example, a country which has quite high tax rates and a strong socialist economic principle in education and health.

[Neon360]

So the mentality should be that if someone makes $4 million dollars then $2 million of their income should go to the government and every year? Ridiculous.

Why is arbitrary number A that different from arbitrary number B?

In the end it's still a case of "You make more money, you get more money in your pocket". (Unless the tax system is severely broken). So it can't be 'ridiculous' unless you're arguing with the very concept of taxation itself (and hopefully it's obvious why taxation is required, although there do seem to be some extraordinarily dim Americans who don't understand the value of socialising services like education, roads, police, fire, health etc.)

Interesting you hold up China as an example, a country which has quite high tax rates and a strong socialist economic principle in education and health.

I'm not arguing about the concept of taxes or that they're ridiculous as a whole, I'm arguing about the rate and how much it increases with the more you make and how it quickly becomes gouging to an absurd degree and then double taxation that first goes though the corporation and then through the individuals/employees a second time. Also, going from 25% to basically 40% is a hell of a jump, then you have to take into consideration not only state taxes (3.3%), self employment tax (6%) but then you mention it paying for all these other services, especially for roads but there are taxes already setup in place that is supposed to cover those things, like the 18.4 cents tax per gallon of gas, yearly taxes paid for plating your vehicle, etc.

I suppose the high tax rate in China is also a contributing factor to worker conditions overall and people wanting to kill themselves.

[pogo]

Interesting you hold up China as an example, a country which has quite high tax rates and a strong socialist economic principle in education and health.

You haven’t visited China clearly Tax rates may be high, but there’s massive underinvestment in education and healthcare. Education spending is skewed towards cities overwhelmingly, with rural education missing out, and the hukou system ensuring they are kept separate.

China's Short-Changing Its Future

Health is even worse: there is no universal provision, no insurance scheme, just payment when you get sick. This is an big problem not just socially but economically - China has one of the highest saving rates in the world, as people save for when they or their parents get sick. Consumer spending is depressed, as is the consumer side of the economy.

How does this happen? I think the high tax rates are misleading as few pay much tax. Few earn a lot, officially, in a still communist state. Much of the wealth is accumulated unofficially due to massive corruption, and so of course is not declared for tax. Also capital flight is a big problem as anyone with wealth looks to move it overseas out of the reach of Chinese authorities, so even a clampdown on corruption does not raise much (and just encourages those doing it to redouble their efforts to send their money abroad).