Trump

[zip accident]

REALITY: Migration isn't a crime or a crisis

It may not be a crisis, but crossing borders without the required documents is a crime.

Maybe it ought not to be, but at the moment it is.

[PFVA]

Not if you are a refugee.
In the case of the US a lot of those migrants qualify as refugees, particularly the ones of El Salvador.
In the case of the UK because of the within the EU agreements the countries where they enter are supposed to take them, unless other countries volunteer to accept them. When the UK leaves the EU that agreement will cease, and unless they manage to get another one, the southern countries will no longer be required to take them back if they reach the UK.

In the meantime, he said "bye" and walked out:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46818218#

[gilesgoat]

Not if you are a refugee.
In the case of the US a lot of those migrants qualify as refugees, particularly the ones of El Salvador.
In the case of the UK because of the within the EU agreements the countries where they enter are supposed to take them, unless other countries volunteer to accept them. When the UK leaves the EU that agreement will cease, and unless they manage to get another one, the southern countries will no longer be required to take them back if they reach the UK.

In the meantime, he said "bye" and walked out:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46818218#

Part of the problem we have in Italy is precisely about that "refugee" status.

For that I'll refer to something like this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee#Legal_definitions

In Italy we saw the following class of people :

- people that are truly escaping from war zones / life at risk / persecution / etc. (1)

- people that are escaping from economically depressed areas looking for better jobs / life somewhere else (2)

- people that claim they are coming from this and that situation but that cannot be proven in any way and it's not sure who they really are (3)

Now while 1 are "true refugees" '2' "depends on how you want to consider them" because let's say "it could be possible they really die if you'd send them back" but not because of war or persecution but because the economy/job/food/etc. situation there is so bad that's very hard to live.

(3) is a serious problem because (3) tends to be "the real illegal immigrants" that "the mix up with others to look legit" and in some cases can be really criminals or such escaping their country.

"General principle" I know normally should be applied is that "to begin first you cannot refuse help to anyone" ( i.e. if he/she's out on a boat dying you can't let them die ) but once is established in what category they are then 'the other rules apply'.

Must be said in Italy deportation "is uncommon" .. because it's expensive to send people back also contrary to places like USA "you cannot force them on a plane and send them back" at most they can give you papers saying "you should be out by X" meanwhile at the point someone is already trying to cross the border in some other EU place.

Most of those people in fact don't want to stay in Italy at all they all want to move somewhere else in EU, 'most targetted places' being Germany, UK, Scandinavia, Norway and such.

Anyway "the crisis" is "why this people are escaping and moving" it's not "the people moving" are "the reasons why they move" that are at the moment "unsolvable".

Who goes to/can fix the war in this and that and make people having 'a normal life there ?' .. Who improves the economy/social situation of country X ? Who can tell that dictator 'stop being an asshole' ?

No one ?

That's the crisis !

[gilesgoat]

Speaking of walls/isolated islands and such ..

Let's not forget things like "the red masque of red death" or "Zardoz" or stuff like that ..

Also two thermodynamic principles :

- in a closed system entropy always rises

- it is possible to create, by using energy, confined spaces with less entropy at the consequence that the entropy outside the confined system increases

Which mean 'there's shit of chaos', you build a wall with great efforts/costs, the chaos outside of it becomes even greater, which is logical because then you have even more people wanting to cross or smash that wall.

(*) instead of spending gazillions on a wall, why they don't invest opening some factories of something in Mexico and give work to people ?

Or that's un-american and/or the cartel or such forbids that or Mexico is too much corrupted for this to happen ?

[tufty]

(3) is a serious problem because (3) tends to be "the real illegal immigrants" that "the mix up with others to look legit" and in some cases can be really criminals or such escaping their country

Sure, there will be some of these. They are liable to be a tiny minority, particularly when, as you say

he/she's out on a boat dying

Pretty much nobody's going to risk their, and their familys' lives, handing over everything they own to criminals in the process, unless they really, really, need to get out of wherever they've come from.

[Dio]

But that's also problem thinking. Since we'd like to stop people dying on boats, we can't use "Preparedness to risk death on boat" as a qualification for entry.

[gilesgoat]

But that's also problem thinking. Since we'd like to stop people dying on boats, we can't use "Preparedness to risk death on boat" as a qualification for entry.

Sort of "I am coming holding a bomb about to explode, save me and let me in or I pull the trigger and kill myself" .. what do you do ? Is that the concept ?

[tufty]

I see where you're coming from, Dio, but the fact remains that it's not a banal thing regardless of what the press would have us think. Between one in 10 and one in 20 of refugees die in the attempt to cross the Med, and that's without taking into account those who die on either side.

I'm no expert on this, but here's some anecdata, gleaned from working with a local refugee support group.

- The rich and / or lucky ones have enough to be able to send the entire family in one go. All the eggs in one basket, as it were.
- The less rich will send their sons of working age; they will then send money home to ship the rest of the family over.
- Those without sons or with less money will send daughters of working age over. Basically, they sell their daughters into prostitution in the hope that they will be able to scrape some cash together to get the rest of the family over. This doesn't work, the girls are used, abused, and die.

The UNHCR figures seem to back this up, about 50% of the migrants are young men.

[gilesgoat]

I see where you're coming from, Dio, but the fact remains that it's not a banal thing regardless of what the press would have us think. Between one in 10 and one in 20 of refugees die in the attempt to cross the Med, and that's without taking into account those who die on either side.

I'm no expert on this, but here's some anecdata, gleaned from working with a local refugee support group.

- The rich and / or lucky ones have enough to be able to send the entire family in one go. All the eggs in one basket, as it were.
- The less rich will send their sons of working age; they will then send money home to ship the rest of the family over.
- Those without sons or with less money will send daughters of working age over. Basically, they sell their daughters into prostitution in the hope that they will be able to scrape some cash together to get the rest of the family over. This doesn't work, the girls are used, abused, and die.

The UNHCR figures seem to back this up, about 50% of the migrants are young men.

Your are wrong, I think the death figures are much higher.

The problem still remains, with no easy solution, that 'despite everything and despite they die trying to reach other countries', it's still like "we can' get 3/4 of Africa in because Africa has problems" or "we can't get 1/2 Syria in because they are escaping a war".

"Something else needs to be done too" and "this something" should be about "solving the problems that originate and make the people escape away".

BUT WHO CAN DO IT ? WHO WANTS TO DO IT ? WHO GETS HANDS DIRTY TRYING TO REASON WITH UNREASONABLE THINGS ?

Even sorting out refugees 'it's not exactly a solution' as long as there will be refugees escaping 'because it's mega shit out there', the problem remains 'it's mega shit out there' and who caused the shit in the first place ?

Migrants/not migrants % more or less "that's not the real problem" the real problem is all the shit happening that makes people run away looking for other places.

[gravy]

(3) is a serious problem because (3) tends to be "the real illegal immigrants" that "the mix up with others to look legit" and in some cases can be really criminals or such escaping their country

You can be refugee AND a criminal the country you're coming from, they are not mutually exclusive.

A thief facing what the rest of the world considers disproportionate punishment has a right to asylum.

I'd be careful with this line of reasoning, there are no real stats to back it up as a genuine problem and a stance used as a dog whistle for racists

[PFVA]

Well this is just a bit related to Trump:

Has anyone noticed that the nationalist governments of Europe (allied with the left wing one of Greece) vetoed the recognition of the Venezuelan president the U.S. and Trump support.

The nationalist of the US have spent a long time and energy promoting nationalism in Europe and i always wondered if they realized that nationalist governments in Europe may mean the loss of allies for them?

[Barney]

Well this is just a bit related to Trump:

Has anyone noticed that the nationalist governments of Europe (allied with the left wing one of Greece) vetoed the recognition of the Venezuelan president the U.S. and Trump support.

The nationalist of the US have spent a long time and energy promoting nationalism in Europe and i always wondered if they realized that nationalist governments in Europe may mean the loss of allies for them?

Traditionally, nationalists don't tend to be very forward-thinking.

[merman]

Well this is just a bit related to Trump:

Has anyone noticed that the nationalist governments of Europe (allied with the left wing one of Greece) vetoed the recognition of the Venezuelan president the U.S. and Trump support.

The nationalist of the US have spent a long time and energy promoting nationalism in Europe and i always wondered if they realized that nationalist governments in Europe may mean the loss of allies for them?

Why is it up to Trump (and the EU) to decide that Venezuela should have elections/change regime?

[zip accident]

Traditionally, nationalists don't tend to be very-thinking.

FTFY.

[Barney]

Traditionally, nationalists don't tend to be very-thinking.

FTFY.

You took what I made and made it better. Cap doffed.