Urgent question for Giles (re: Coffee)

[phattslagg]

Giles! I need to ask your advice re. moka pot coffee.

I have, on 2 or 3 occasions now, made coffee in my moka pot that had about an inch of beautiful froth - froth with a dark, rich colour that actually maintains its structure, with much bigger bubbles than you’d get from espresso crema, and every time it’s done this, the coffee has been so magnificent that the experience of drinking it has lingered long in my consciousness.

I need to know what I did right!

The coffee was nothing special - freshly ground Co-op own brand Italian beans.

My method:

(4-cup Ikea cheapo moka pot £13)

Grind coffee to fine espresso size.

Fill basket and press grinds gently so that they’re flat across the top.

Boil kettle.

Put a bit of cold water in the bottom, then top up with boiling water.

Put on gas hob, low heat.

Take pot off heat well before it starts spitting.

What do you think I need to focus on to achieve this almost mythical foam and creamy texture more reliably?

[gilesgoat]

I can only tell MY method.

- Bialetti 3 cups MOKA
- Lavazza Rossa ( for moka ) grinded as it comes from the pacakge
- COLD WATER fill the thing until it covers 1/2 the "safety valve"
- Fill the "filter" ( basket ?? ) until it's level, add a bit more, press gently
- Put on "medium hot" ( electric mark 4 ) more "hot" than "low"
- Take out when you hear it soundig ( before it spits too much )

IMHO I think "the cream" first of all depends on the coffee itself, I am guessing depends on how much wax/oils it contains ?

Second I always noted "the cream seems to form the moment the coffee begins to come out", there's a stage where it's still "running smoothly as a syrup fluid" .. that's when the cream forms, I SUPPOSE you could stop there before it begins bubbling and spitting to have more cream at the cost of less coffee.

In a real espresso machine temperature I think it's around 90C at 9Bar for a 25 seconds extraction .. so the internet says

So I am guessing we are "far away" all those parameters.

But I'd say "at home" is more a matter of grinding size ( I htink thinner is better but not too thin ), quality of coffee blend ( some blends are not creamy at all ) , time on the stove.

You say "low" I say more "medium high", in THEORY "it should not really matter" because one the thing reaches that temp it starts pushing the coffee up that you did start with hot or cold it's only time not temp, but once it start pushing the fire should determine how fast it gets pushed out.

So yeah I think the key would LOOK when the foam starts to form, try to keep "that temp" until foam is still foaming and then stop it before it goes away ( too much diluted ).

And yes "try different coffe" because some UK coffees I tried are really "too crap for foaming".

[edit] - with Lavazza Rossa and my method I constantly get "that coffee I want", it's not super creamy but the flavour is consistently "robust" plus I keep it in a sealed pot in the fridge.

You don't want the coffee to get "dry" and loose all its natural humidity then all the aromas are crap/gone.

One UK coffee I liked quite a bit, but cannot find it around here now, was Monsoon Malabaar, Whitthard used to sell it.

I tried other UK coffees .. very much hit and miss, there were "a couple" that were OK but nowhere near a Lavazza for example, that Monsoon was an exception.

But yeah keep in mind Moka Coffee is OK but if you want a REAL espresso only a proper BAR machine can do it, IF it's PROPERLY set "the Italian way" that in UK will NEVER find.

NEVER because "you can't make MUGs of coffee that way", if you'd do "mugs espersso style" you'd see riots on the streets or lots of people falling by hearth attacks on the spot

An Italian espresso is for connosserurs

.. and Italians .. that are born with it .. used to it .. abuse of it .. and are nervous and swearing and vaffanculo all the time

[edit2] - ah yes LAST but NOT LEAST .. the quality of the water you are using .. it should be soft, NOT cholrinated, not too high in metals.

[Rhythm]

Been a long time since I retired my espresso machine but the only way I could ever guarantee a good crema was in the grind. Lavazza beans (super cheap at Costco), Delonghi burr grinder set just a notch grainier than its recommended "espresso" setting. Only ground the exact amount I needed for that "brew". The machine took an age to warm up properly and was a PITA to clean properly but man alive it was lush.

I still drink espresso out on the road (old man bladder issues), but as I'm travelling much less these days I've started having a single large pourover every morning. Gooseneck kettle with temperature control, Lavazza preground (again, cheap from Costco), Hario paper filters. Get the kettle to ~94 degrees, rinse the paper filter, add 25g coffee, then "bloom" the coffee by adding 50g of water off the kettle. Leave it 30 seconds, then slowly pour over 400g of water (which should still be between 90 and 94 degrees by this point) in a kind of spiral going out from the centre then back in from the outside. The pour takes about a minute, the water has fully passed through within 2.

Decanted into a nice large mug this makes for a lovely start to any day :-)

[phattslagg]

Some interesting contradictions in our styles!

Reading through your method, Giles, I’m becoming convinced that the critical variables are the grind/ volume of coffee/tamping.

I’m currently on a batch of Lavazza Qualita Oro beans. So far, no magic brew.

The only times I’ve achieved it have been with the Co-op Italian blend. But that’s what I normally have anyway, as it’s the only beans they do at my local convenience store.

Might check out the Monsooned Malabar next time I’m at Waitrose. They do them in their own brand.

When it happens, it’s like all of the brew comes out as this thick foam, that then mostly settles to the liquid coffee, but leaving enough foam for a serious crema. I’ll keep you posted on any repeatable variations I discover

[phattslagg]

Nailed it!

[Rubisco]

Lavazza Rossa

£8.99 a kilo in Booker/Makro right now if you have a card.

[gilesgoat]

Nailed it!

WOW .. that's as perfect as it could be, may admit I can't make that sort of thing consistently !

Today I gained another place in another circle of hell ... I don't even want to think where I'll end up .. there's been "a huge amount" of "Dio ... " and "Madonna .. " and other things when while checking a curry I am preparing for later I accidentally "grabbed" the moka handle with my ( tea ) towel I was using to hold the pots and spilled ALL the contents ( quite some cofee ) all over the cooker that I had to quickly clean !

Luckily did not spill inside the curry .. but all that coffee LOST !

So in the end "what method did you use ?"

[gribbles]

Nailed it!

So did you kill the heat when it stared coming though?

[phattslagg]

Method was identical to my original post. That’s what is so frustrating, because there’s something I’m doing wrong most of the time. And the difference is significant when it comes out like this. It’s either like this and incredible or it’s not and it’s just OK. There seems to be no halfway.

I think the following things are important:

Fresh ground beans. Ground coffee goes off so quickly, that I don’t think you stand a reasonable chance of getting this kind of foam with anything after the first brew from a freshly opened pack.

The grind. I’m going for a pretty fine espresso grind - I think a slight tweak either side of where I am might get me a more reliable brew.

The amount of coffee and how hard/gently I tamp it. I used gentle finger tamping for this brew, with the coffee piled over the top - tamped until level.

What I don’t think is important:

Initial water temperature. I think the only difference this makes is how long you have to wait - having said that, I think that using cold water makes it more likely you’ll get distracted waiting for it to heat up and end up over-brewing it.

Water softness. We have pretty hard water here, so that can’t be a factor in whether it foams or not, but I expect softening it might improve the flavour, so I might look into that.

@gribbles - I didn’t kill the heat, but I do start nudging it gently down to help maintain a steady brew rate.

[(o)(o)]

That is very impressive, particularly since I thought it was a golden rule “never lift moka lid during brewing”

Since they cane out with compostable capsules I bought a Lazzaba Mondo Mio, this thing is brilliant in its simplicity it’s 9 bar and you can of course get Rosso..

Certainly not as creamy as above, but you invariably get a decent crema.. and the decaf is better than any other decaf I’ve tried.. it straightaway has that right ‘smell’ and the taste is close enough..

Technically I don’t see why it should be worse than a typical machine as the capsules as ‘tamped ‘ consistently, the coffee is kept fresh, the capsules are punched through with numerous holes and 9 bar right temp..

(Espresso machines are normally 15 bar I think but I see 9 bar mentioned above)

Piccy later..

[phattslagg]

I’m beginning to think that a lot of these “rules” about moka brewing are more like superstitions than anything. I wouldn’t dream of putting the lid on - otherwise how would I know when it’s brewed the right amount? If you wait until you hear it spitting you’ve already ruined the brew.

[phattslagg]

The thing about those capsule machines, though - there’s no art or excitement to them. It’s like streaming from Spotify through a Sonos vs playing vinyl on a decent deck through a proper hifi.

[(o)(o)]

True, but it's consistent, fast and convenient!

I only tend to have one real coffee a day which I make with frothed oatmilk.. creamy AF.

Plenty decaf espressos if in the mood though..

[phattslagg]

OK. Just nailed it again, and with a different coffee bean, which is very encouraging.

Slightly finer espresso grind. Piled high and gently finger-tamped. Twice actually - did a little top-up.

Heat slightly higher than I’ve been doing a lot of the time. I think this might be important - if you go with really low heat I don’t think you get enough momentum through the grinds.

Another factor though which I believe is very important for getting this consistent: you have to learn the coffee type. Every bean/blend is different. I discovered long ago with my espresso machine that a grind that works great with one bean type will choke the machine with another, and will piss through with another. It can even change slightly as the beans age in the hopper.

[phattslagg]

As for milk-frothing - I’ll post a video of my next latte. I got this shit *down*. No steam wand or electric frothers...