Urgent question for Giles (re: Coffee)

[phattslagg]

In celebration of the fact that I managed to get an even more perfect moka coffee than the one in the video (it’s definitely grind+volume+tamping) I thought I’d ruin it with some frothed milk as promised:

[phattslagg]

@Giles - in case you’re distressed by this:

1) It was before 11am

2) I saved enough for a cup of black.

[gilesgoat]

@Giles - in case you’re distressed by this:

1) It was before 11am

2) I saved enough for a cup of black.

The thing is why you don't put a video showing from start to finish how you get that coffee cream ?

[phattslagg]

It’s actually quite simple.

You need:

Fridge-cold* milk. *This is hugely important.

A cafetière. I use a small, single person one.

A jug.

A microwave.

Put milk in cafetière. Slightly less than half full for a big single dose. About 2/3 for the amount in the video.

Pump cafetière vigorously until milk stiffens.

Pour into jug.

Microwave on medium power for about 1m20s.

[phattslagg]

I should probably add that this is with semi-skimmed. Skimmed milk probably froths even more.

[gilesgoat]

I should probably add that this is with semi-skimmed. Skimmed milk probably froths even more.

It's NOT about the MILK ! What I want to know is how you got this "infallable method" to get the CREAM in the coffee itself, that you say it's all about "pressure and grind".

[phattslagg]

It’s not infallible, unfortunately. I do it by guesswork/feel. But it’s the same method I’ve already described.

I made three pots today - the first one was absolute perfection. Unbelievable flavour. Crema even better than the original video.

The second one I threw away. It was crap.

The third was drinkable enough, but not a patch on the first.

The coffee type and grind were the same. The gas level was the same.

The only things that could have been different were how much coffee I used and how firmly I tamped it. The problem is that I felt like I did it all exactly the same each time. But I think it might require extremely precise amounts of coffee and tamping pressure.

[(o)(o)]

I'd like to see that achieved with oat milk (well maybe a bit less foamy, I want to drink my drink not eat it or wear it like a moustache )... Once you go oat, there's no going back IMO *

Actually I believe it should work.. oat milk froths really well I just use one of these inordinately priced things and get some decent results...




* Also good for lowering cholesteroal methinks

[gilesgoat]

I just tried with more compression/coffee .. given the water and heat and such and method I use it's always the same.

Yes the coffee was ok .. NO I did not get "that creamy flow" for more than some seconds ...

That elusive thing seems "almost totally uncontrollable" and yet they get it - IN ITALY - 100% of the time with the espresso machines.

Now given that even that pressing is done by hand - and I think they press quite hard - then I think it must be boiling down to 3 variables ? .. quantity, that is calibrated by the dispenser, temperature that is controlled precisely by the machine, and pressure that again is set in the machine ...

Well grinding "it's always the same" and even if they grind it on spot the grinder is calibrated gets always the same grind.

"Time" I don't put it because in an - ITALIAN - espresso machine the cream ALWAYS comes out, it's only a matter of stopping it "when you think it's enough" that normally means at 1/2 3/4 MAX of the cup filled.

About the frotty milk .. "all balooney" .. you need only ONE thing that every - ITALIAN - espresso machine has, the jet of steam, that makes "the perfect frot" by injecting air and coagulating the milk proteins.

[phattslagg]

Trust me, Giles - my foamed milk is superior to any cappuccino-style, steam-frothed effort. And yes, I’ve tried it in Italy - the words “underwhelming” and “overrated” spring to mind Steam wands add water to the milk. My method retains the natural creaminess of the milk and is way more delicious as a result, both in taste and texture. It’s totally impractical for an espresso bar though - it’s takes too long and is overly complicated for fast turnaround.

Re: espresso machines: I think this is totally different. I have an espresso machine (Gaggia Classic), and I can get crema every time from that. Any decent espresso bar machine will piss all over the Gaggia, too. This is more like a combination between espresso crema and the kind of bloom you get when you use a cafetière. But the texture is unique and different to either. And the taste is on another level altogether. I’ve had some nice Italian espressos, but this is not like them. Them getting it 100% in Italy with espresso machines bears no relevance to what we’re trying to do with moka pots. This is different - more temperamental, but potentially even better than the best espresso, imo. I cannot tell you how good the flavour *and texture* of yesterday’s first brew was. And it was just Co-op beans.

The big problem, I think, is that the espresso machines have the advantage of mechanically driven pressure that forces the water through the grinds quickly enough that they don’t get scalded - the brew I trashed yesterday was (I think) slightly over-compacted, so by the time the water had managed to get through it had basically burnt the coffee. But if it comes through too easily, it also doesn’t cream up.

Somehow - about once a week on average - I’m managing to hit the sweet-spot. But I’m starting to think that trying to figure out how to do it every time is the road to madness.

[phattslagg]

Re the variables:

I’m not convinced the water temperature is too critical, as the water should only start to rise at the same temperature? I might be wrong about this, though, as I’m not sure moka pot physics are as simple as they might appear to be.

The tamping pressure is definitely something a barista has to be trained for, but the firm tamping you need for espresso machines is not compatible with moka pot pressure, which is much more gentle, I think.

The grind is definitely important. I’ve identified the setting on my grinder that seems to be most likely to deliver a foamy brew, and I think it’s probably finer than pre-ground tends to be. Thinking about it - I have a packet of Costa ground coffee someone gave me - I think I might use it for experimental purposes today.

Dosing is probably very important. I guess it might prove necessary to precisely weight the grinds. Annoying, but I do have digital scales, so should be possible.

[phattslagg]

Bloody Costa coffee is cafetière grind

Been running experiments with a new bag of beans:

Three brews - first foamy and good, although it was slightly more bitter than yesterday’s.

Next two brews didn’t foam.

But I think there might be something worth following up on: fill basket until it’s heaped, then tamp *very gently* to level the grinds only. Top up and tamp even more gently to level across the basket rim.

Working with this method for the next day or two. Will report back.

[gilesgoat]

QUESTION : in WHAT PART of Italy did you get your cappuccino/espresso ?

NOT ALL Italy is "very good" in coffee, some parts of North Italy can be awful in term of espresso ( strange but it is ) .

[phattslagg]

Umbria. But in all honesty, I don’t think the milk-frothing bit is what makes Italian coffee special. Steam-frothed milk is much of a muchness.

[gilesgoat]

Umbria. But in all honesty, I don’t think the milk-frothing bit is what makes Italian coffee special. Steam-frothed milk is much of a muchness.

No no no .. NO .. "Umbria is not one of those places for coffee" .. you should have come to Trieste, or Venice or Naples ..

Anyway yes it's not about the milk, it's all about the Espresso / blends