Coronavirus Pandemic

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VNVObit
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by VNVObit »

merman wrote:*snip*

(Don't get me started on the private sector "renting" beds to the NHS, my blood pressure is high enough already...)
The NHS has very little spare capacity and the only alternative is to rent beds. Yes the cost is £300 per day per bed but would be surprised if that was the full market rate for a private hospital - (When I lived in Ireland I had my wisdom tooth removed the accommodation cost for the day in a private hospital was IR£500 around 25 years ago - Luckily I had health insurance)

The comparison made by GMB union (I read their tweet) was it cost nothing on the NHS which is misleading (and I am being generous). You have the capital outlay (and associated financing costs), ongoing maintenance, energy, cleaning, associated equipment (which won't be cheap) so £300 a day may not be profiteering as much as you might think.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by Barney »

VNVObit wrote:
merman wrote:*snip*

(Don't get me started on the private sector "renting" beds to the NHS, my blood pressure is high enough already...)
The NHS has very little spare capacity and the only alternative is to rent beds. Yes the cost is £300 per day per bed but would be surprised if that was the full market rate for a private hospital - (When I lived in Ireland I had my wisdom tooth removed the accommodation cost for the day in a private hospital was IR£500 around 25 years ago - Luckily I had health insurance)

The comparison made by GMB union (I read their tweet) was it cost nothing on the NHS which is misleading (and I am being generous). You have the capital outlay (and associated financing costs), ongoing maintenance, energy, cleaning, associated equipment (which won't be cheap) so £300 a day may not be profiteering as much as you might think.
It's not profiteering at all - it's less than it costs for the NHS to keep a bed open (which last I looked - five years ago now, dear me where does the time go - was £500 per day).

Lots of people on Twitter screaming that the beds should be given up to the NHS for free and lots screaming at them that it's theft and how is anyone supposed to make a profit off that?

I don't think I've spent so much time with my face in my palms as I have today, which is ironic really given the situation.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by Absolute_Zero »

I note that Sky News, unable to state that the death toll doubled yesterday, instead made the lesser statement that the number trebled over the weekend. I suppose that sounds scarier to the maths-challenged.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by VNVObit »

Son's school has closed down after 2 cases of Covid-19 were diagnosed. They are carrying out sanitisation works at the school with a view to reopening tomorrow (personally I think that's optimistic)

Saw ambulance crew getting out of their hazmat suits on Saturday (they were visiting a property around the corner from me).

feeling a little close for comfort
Absolute_Zero wrote:I note that Sky News, unable to state that the death toll doubled yesterday, instead made the lesser statement that the number trebled over the weekend. I suppose that sounds scarier to the maths-challenged.
It'd wouldn't be so scary if the government had done daily briefings releasing figures at them. doubling or trebling when you are in the low 10s is not surprising nor particularly scary. What is scary is the approach to testing and control. Would also like to understand the confidence levels in the modelling 80%? 90%? as well as assumptions as not sure the public are behaving the way they modelled!
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by gravy »

Absolute_Zero wrote:If it were Cummings then the Chief Scientist and Chief Medical officer should be criticised for not resigning.

Playing this for politics... check yourself.
I'm obviously taking the piss.

That said we have a government following a strategy that's out of kilter with its peers, oriented around data modelling that they're not sharing for peer review and at the same time saying they're lead by science.

That does sound like something you'd find in Cumming's blog.

I think appropriate to be sceptical and keep pressure on the government to show their working when they're so far out of step with other countries facing similar issues.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by gilesgoat »

As you may have seen in certain tweets, regardless of what the government is saying/doing we are taking some precautions, specifically avoiding all unnecessary moves/exposure to "assembly of people/crowded places", wash your hand, etc.

We are pretty cautious about going anywhere - if not really necessary - on the "plus" side we are literally working day and night basically 7/7.

So yes "seeing what the government is saying/doing at the moment it's really a bit of a grim/weird/blah/meh situation" do I trust them ? NO ! Not even a bit !

Do I think it's totally unavoidable to be infected ? Not sure .. but "I would not make it that easy for the virus".

I mean nor me nor Jeff we are "that young" so still "better to keep an eye".

Anyway I don't think it's a "bad thing" to be at least a bit cautious.

[edit] - all we need to do is to call this guy ... he DELETED THE VIRUS !!!

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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by merman »

VNVObit wrote:
merman wrote:*snip*

(Don't get me started on the private sector "renting" beds to the NHS, my blood pressure is high enough already...)
The NHS has very little spare capacity and the only alternative is to rent beds. Yes the cost is £300 per day per bed but would be surprised if that was the full market rate for a private hospital - (When I lived in Ireland I had my wisdom tooth removed the accommodation cost for the day in a private hospital was IR£500 around 25 years ago - Luckily I had health insurance)

The comparison made by GMB union (I read their tweet) was it cost nothing on the NHS which is misleading (and I am being generous). You have the capital outlay (and associated financing costs), ongoing maintenance, energy, cleaning, associated equipment (which won't be cheap) so £300 a day may not be profiteering as much as you might think.
Tories have cut 17,000 beds in the last ten years.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by VNVObit »

merman wrote:*snip*
Tories have cut 17,000 beds in the last ten years.
I think that's the more relevant point then the actual cost of additional

Though it would be an additional 8000 ICU beds not generic

even so UK is pretty poor relative to other countries 35th (based on 2017's report)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_O ... pital_beds
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by gilesgoat »

NO PANIC ? YES PANIC !

So .. we ran out of supplies, for us and the sheep, we said "ok we are not going panic mode" so we made a "reasonable list" of "let's try to buy something but not too much".

Now the point is I am SURE we won't "ran out of food" BUT the other point also is "yes but you want TO REDUCE AT MINIMUM the times you have to go in/out the house to get it".

So ok anyway "no panic" we go to Morrisons in Carmarthen, as we usually do, because it's 2 steps away the sheep food shop ...

.. there was .. " a strange feeling " in the car park already ..

We go in .. I swear in 15 years I am here in UK I *NEVER* seen what I saw today !

So these items :

- pasta : TOTALLY *GONE* NOTHING IN SIGHT !
- rice : TOTALLY *GONE* NOTHING IN SIGHT !
- canned meat : TOTALLY *GONE* NOTHING IN SIGHT !
- canned tomato : TOTALLY *GONE* NOTHING IN SIGHT ! ( I think there was some Dolmio left :mrgreen: - which I DID NOT take )
- flour : VANISHED *COMPLETELY*
- sugar : NOT A SINGLE PACKAGE IN SIGHT !
- toilet paper / kitchen paper : sad .. *NOT ONE SINGLE PACKAGE OF ANYTHING*
- hand sanitizer/wash : *ALL GONE*
- beer : *ALMOST TOTALLY GONE* !!
- eggs : some where but see below

So .. we got some beer, there was some at good price, quite some RAMEN, got a few other things, common soap bars ( well we needed some ), some eggs, a bottle of Rhum ( you need it ! ) for drinking :mrgreen: , some other things ( they had Lavazza WEW !!! )

So "just to check another place" we went to Tesco, which is quite BIGGER than Morrisons ..

*SAME STORY* except that :

- eggs : TOTALLY GONE

Manage to find 4 packages of "spaghetti number 5", some 4 tins of canned tomato left, 2 packages of lasagne, 1 small package of tea.

Funny enough I had a interesting/funny conversation with some guy about Ramen while we were scanning the food at the counter :lol: :lol:

But yeah despite the warnings "don't go into panic buy mode" looks like quite some people did .. which made me think .. "first the shop complains a lot they don't sell enough" .. "now they could be selling like crazy they complain they are selling too much they can't cope" .. hum NOT that they did not see this coming ...

"Preparing in advance" does not seem to be a thing nowadays .. :roll:
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by phattslagg »

The supermarkets were bloody useless in the early stages of this. They should have had the foresight to limit items per customer way sooner than they did.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by Jamesac »

I've had luck finding staple foods at non-traditional stores. It will cost more to buy flour at a convenience store, but at least it's there. Sad thing is it's not even price-gouging, just the normal cost for the location.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by NorthWay »

"Foreigners out" - Norway is returning you if you don't have permanent recidency. I believe this is practiced in several countries now.
Stuff is shutting down fast, and more is coming. The supermarket madness seems to have calmed down.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by KlaxonCow »

I find myself in agreement with this article:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... s-outbreak

China has 1.3 billion people. It contained its outbreak at 80K cases - a mere 0.006% of its population.

South Korea has a population of 51 million - comparable enough to the UK - and it's brought its outbreak under containment at 8K cases, which is only 0.015% of its total population.

Hong Kong and Singapore are also largely succeeding to contain their outbreaks.

Yes, when they loosen up controls and re-open the gates, there's potential for new outbreaks to erupt. But they have systems in place - that worked successfully when they were not prepared for it at all, which should run even more smoothly for any future outbreaks - to stamp out those fires as they happen.

They're following WHO recommendations, which is basically to "flatten the curve" and keep things under containment until drug treatment and, eventually, a vaccine are available.

Because the whole point of a vaccine is to deliver "herd immunity" to everyone with a harmless jab. With drug treatments, we can potentially reduce the mortality rate.

We contain - "flatten the curve" - for a year or so, until the vaccine arrives, and then we immunise everyone and we can actually give the population "herd immunity" with a jab - rather than Boris's insane plan of trying to obtain it, for 65 million people, from the wild virus itself, including all the illness, death and unnecessary death (because it's beyond the health service's ability to cope), and the catastrophic damage to the economy.

The argument against this seems to be "but it'll re-emerge next Winter". Yes, very probably. But then we do it again next Winter and contain it, at relatively low numbers, once more. Then we have a vaccine eventually and can directly give everyone "herd immunity" - with a harmless jab that doesn't cause vast amounts of illness and death.

This is the route - the WHO recommendations - that EVERYONE ON THE PLANET IS FOLLOWING but Boris. That is the world consensus from scientists.

Meanwhile, Boris is saying that he's "following the science" and has got "data modelling"... but then refuses to show his "workings out" to anyone, and is not publishing them publicly for "peer review" from all the other scientists. This is NOT how science has ever worked. It's the original "open source". Show your data to everyone and "a thousand eyes" will test it, review it, improve on it, point out the problems, and so forth.

Yes, with terrorists or other nations, you keep your "national security" secrets hidden, because you don't want your enemies to know what you're planning. But this is a virus, you idiot, it can't read. There's no "we must keep the science and data modelling secret, so that the virus doesn't find out what we're planning". You can scream it from the rooftops through a mega-phone - viruses have no ears nor a brain to comprehend it, even if they did.

What the hell is the justification for not openly revealing the science and data modelling that this contrary-to-the-entire-rest-of-the-planet policy is based on?

And I don't get the defeatist "surrender mode" of throwing our hands up in the air and letting the virus take us, when we've got countries like China and South Korea managing to contain their outbreaks at only 0.006% and 0.015% of their populations. Mere hundredths and thousandths of their total population.

It's just weird to declare "total surrender" so early and without even trying, while other nations have shown that, by being proactive, you can contain it at fractions of a percent of your total population.

And it's fundamentally incompatible. If the rest of the world is containing it until the vaccine arrives, while the UK is throwing "let's all catch the virus!!" parties then they'll have to travel ban all UK citizens to everywhere else in the world, because the entire nation becomes the biggest "transmission vector" on the planet. Cut them off completely.

Like, a few weeks ago, while China was struggling and Italy was exploding in numbers, then I can see the "let's prepare for the worst" planning. This might be un-containable, so we need a "plan B" for that eventuality. But then China contained it. South Korea contained it. Iran's exponential curve is now going linear - and their initial response was atrocious.

If you understand what an exponential curve should look like, look at South Korea's graph:

Image

That's a textbook exponential ogive, as expected. But it's a really, really shallow one. The upward curve barely gets going before it's curving into a plateau.

Containment is possible. And we can keep containing until there's drug treatments and eventually a vaccine. Then we directly give everyone on the planet "herd immunity" through a harmless jab, without vast amounts of illness and death. As the WHO recommends, and every other country on the planet is following.

Or we follow Boris's plan where we all start sneezing in each other's faces, the NHS collapses, businesses can't cope, millions are sick and hundred of thousands die, in order to achieve "herd immunity" the monumentally stupid way of utilising the wild virus itself...

...only for, a few months later, the vaccine to arrive and the rest of the world, who contained things at no more than a fraction of a percent of their total populations, just get their jabs and are fine.

The history books will have a special chapter for us on this pandemic, labelled "Idiot Island".

And it's also quite unnecessary. Because, you know, "herd immunity" would inevitably happen anyway. You might as well try the WHO "containment until vaccine arrives" policy, because if it doesn't work then we implicitly end up at Boris's plan anyhow. TRY to contain it - because if you can't, then you're automatically back to "well, when enough people get this, it'll stop being a problem" anyway, as the natural thing that'll inevitably happen, whatever you do.

It's like Boris and COBRA struggled really hard a week or so ago to come up with a "worst case scenario" plan. But now that evidence from multiple other countries demonstrates that, actually, you can contain it within a fraction of one percent of your total population, with proactive measures, they're just being pig-headed. "No, I spent a lot of time on this plan. We're doing it anyway. I refuse to revise the plan to match what we're actually seeing out there, because it was such a headache to work this one out in the first place and I don't want to do it again".


(Oh, and if the virus spreads to millions in the UK, this greatly increases the chance of mutation. Then all bets are off - the vaccine and drug efforts are undermined, and Boris's "herd immunity" starts from square one again, because now we've got a new strain, so it all starts from scratch again. Boris could have us do this - which greatly increases the chance of mutation - and then, after it all, it doesn't even work. It mutates and no-one has any immunity to this new strain all over again. Containment is also about containing the chances of mutation, by keeping the numbers low so the chance is small, so that when we eventually have a vaccine for this strain, it's still useful.)
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by Deckard »

Its an odd one though in that have any previous viruses been so age specific ? Below 30 in China rate of death was less than 0.1%
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by Little stoned kiwi »

I don't think any virus has been tested and publicised so much. But the the stats from the testing don't mean anything as collection is so sporadic.
In NZ I feel the numbers are wildly underrepresented because of the travel/symptoms required before testing.
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