Coronavirus Pandemic

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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by KlaxonCow »

tufty wrote:had they followed the scientific advice that they were given by the international body designed to advise in such cases, COVID-19 would barely be a fucking blip on the radar, financially speaking.
Totally. Instead, we've easily got the biggest "bail out" in all of human history, with nearly every nation on Earth having to do mad shit like pay everyone's wages and throw grants at small businesses in the hopes it'll pay for "mothballing" them for a few months.

But, hey, this government is "tired of experts", right? These qualified people who know what they're talking about, coming in here with all their "science facts" and maths and shit. Some of them are even foreigners, you know. It's a dreadful state of affairs.

Is Michael Gove out of self-isolation yet? Then he could tell you this himself. From a safe distance of more than 2 metres, of course.

Seriously, the Prime Minister, the Health Secretary, and the Chief Medical Officer all bloody get it. They call in "Pob" to take over the press briefings - which, by the way, is the worst decision ever, as he's awful at it, providing no reassurance whatsoever and instinctively ducking all questions with non-answers that you don't trust a single fucking word he says - and then he has to go into self-isolation, as his daughter was "presenting symptoms" (though she tested negative, we're told - isn't it odd, though, how when any of these careless buffoons or their families dice with death, they always seem to get tested almost immediately? No, no, I'm sure there's no shenanigans going on there and it's all above board, with no "queue jumping" going on for themselves).

It's a fucking farce.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by Cloudane »

One of the local brewers decided to make their staff redundant rather than furlough. Baffling. Hawkshead Beer just got a whole lot more bitter...
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

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I find it very odd. Given how infectious this seems to be, it baffles me that contact tracing without lockdown works at all. I mean, one asymptomatic person arriving at Heathrow and going into London on the tube and having a few pints is 100+ potentially infected people in the first couple of hours - and by five days on, when the first of those start showing symptoms... how do you even reverse engineer it back to the original person?

This is why I'd assumed Korea had locked the infected regions down fairly hard, I couldn't see how it worked otherwise. When combined with an effective lockdown, when there aren't any casual contacts to trace, when you can push it back to a specific "OK, here are the 50 people you interacted with this week", it feels within the bounds of possibility.

This is why I don't think contact tracing was taken seriously, because it smells of impossibility. How is it working for some? How have they managed to trace the 1000+ people who have casual contact in a week? What's different? Nobody has written anything on that yet.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by merman »

Dio wrote:I find it very odd. Given how infectious this seems to be, it baffles me that contact tracing without lockdown works at all. I mean, one asymptomatic person arriving at Heathrow and going into London on the tube and having a few pints is 100+ potentially infected people in the first couple of hours - and by five days on, when the first of those start showing symptoms... how do you even reverse engineer it back to the original person?

This is why I'd assumed Korea had locked the infected regions down fairly hard, I couldn't see how it worked otherwise. When combined with an effective lockdown, when there aren't any casual contacts to trace, when you can push it back to a specific "OK, here are the 50 people you interacted with this week", it feels within the bounds of possibility.

This is why I don't think contact tracing was taken seriously, because it smells of impossibility. How is it working for some? How have they managed to trace the 1000+ people who have casual contact in a week? What's different? Nobody has written anything on that yet.
From how they described it on the BBC Horizon documentary last week, South Korea started testing everyone entering the country as soon as its first case was found. And from there contact tracing kicked in, as well aw mass testing in the affected areas.

The WHO said test, test, test.
Today Matt Hancock denied saying Britain would be at 25,000 tests per day. Shame he had said exactly that last month.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

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Dio wrote:This is why I don't think contact tracing was taken seriously, because it smells of impossibility. How is it working for some? How have they managed to trace the 1000+ people who have casual contact in a week? What's different? Nobody has written anything on that yet.
Reading all of our email smacked of impossibility, but as Snowden showed, it was far from that.

Korea's approach is very "person of interest" - it's invasive. They are using, amongst other things, surveillance cameras, cellphone location data, credit card transactions, social media …

"Oh no, we can't do that".

But we can. After picking up Norbert Lelandais for the murder of Maëlys de Araujo in 2017, largely based on surveillance camera data, the police here also managed to use historical cell phone location and, again, surveillance camera data, to prove his guilt in the murder of a young soldier 6 months before - a crime he had not been suspected of.

You don't need to catch *every* contact, or even every infection. Only a significant percentage of them, enough to take the infection rate from >1 to <1. At that point, it eventually peters out by itself. Sure, there will be the occasional infection here and there, but it's manageable. Korea are still having new infections - 27 yesterday.

What's important is that they got this all in place before the problem got out of hand. At the peak, the worst they were dealing with was 500-1000 new cases a day ,and that only lasted for a few days.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by PFVA »

Take away lunch

Actually half of it, the other half will be dinner in a short while

ImageTake Away Lunch

It's 'pota' (southern shortfin squid) which is used often around here in lieu of squid, with potatoes and some green stuff.

Unfortunately i turned on the telly and the first thing i saw and heard was that man that lives in the White House in DC, going on and on about the WHO and a few other things.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

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Someone was telling me about some study saying we may have until the end of 2022 or so before this thing will be really over ...
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by Harlequin »

gilesgoat wrote:Someone was telling me about some study saying we may have until the end of 2022 or so before this thing will be really over ...
Is anything ever really over?

The virus is likely to be around at least some while after a good vaccine is developed. In the meantime, once infections are past their peak. I think social restrictions should be able to ease gradually. I personally like the idea of letting populations out for a week or so every now and then to visit friends and family, still with distancing in mind, to let some pressure off from heated home environments before mass explosions.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by Cloudane »

Can't see people putting up with social distancing to 2022! Heck I would also be like "it can take me if it wants I don't care any more".

Around for that long in some fashion, sure.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by zip accident »

Is there any reason the predicted graphs are symetric? I'd sort of expect it to round over then tail off fairly sharply as the potential new cases dried up because most people had been infected.

I think that if this lockdown is working, it will need to keep going for at least two more months, and possibly another five, since we've had one already and that would make six.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

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zip accident wrote:Is there any reason the predicted graphs are symetric? I'd sort of expect it to round over then tail off fairly sharply as the potential new cases dried up because most people had been infected.

I think that if this lockdown is working, it will need to keep going for at least two more months, and possibly another five, since we've had one already and that would make six.
Let's hope it does not go like that Italian virologist was warning about :

- you start social distancing/lockdown
- people thinks "it's not working that well it's a pain in the arse"
- it actually starts to work,eventually cases go down
- people gets tired of distancing/lockdown begin to think "it's not longer necessary"
- restrictions get removed TOO SOON, people are so happy go back to normal way

TOTAL DEATH AND DESTRUCTION AT UNMANAGEABLE SCALE

The real risk is "removing restrictions too soon", sadly nobody seems to know well when "too soon" is .
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

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Dio wrote:I find it very odd. Given how infectious this seems to be, it baffles me that contact tracing without lockdown works at all.
But yet South Korea did exactly that.

Because they jumped on it pro-actively from the very first case and went hard on "test, trace, isolate", while the numbers were small, to keep those numbers small. Going hard to stop it getting a foothold in the population in the first place.

And the numbers speak for themselves, as they've had, at time of writing, only 229 deaths total and just over 10K total cases. For a country with a population of around 50 million, which is perfectly comparable to the UK's 60-ish million.

And, as tufty rightly notes, the "test, trace, isolate" doesn't have to be perfect - indeed, as you note, it essentially cannot be perfect, as that's really a practical impossibility - but as long as it brings the infection rates right down, then it can be good enough.

Basically, the rough estimate on the wild spread rate for this thing, from all the world data so far, is about 1.3 which roughly means that, in the fortnight you've got this for, you're infecting about 3 other people on average.

Yeah, looking at the numbers, you might think that this virus is more infectious than that. That, like, that hypothetical person landing in Heathrow is instantly spreading it to 100+ people. But, actually, no, on average, it's about 3 people.

The problem is the exponential growth. Those 3 people, on average, infect 3 others. So that's 9 people and they infect 3 people on average, so now we're at 27 people. Then those 27 infect another 3 each and we're at 81 people.

You get the gist. The formula is roughly 3^x and it's the exponent that's increasing here, so that's why it balloons to big numbers so fast.

It's not because there's one guy out there single-handedly infecting 100+ people within a few hours. The problem is that it's exponential: 1, 3, 9, 27, 81, 243, 729, 2187, 6561, etc. and folks can be wandering around asymptomatically for up to two weeks, so we don't realise that the "virus bomb" went off there until a fortnight later.

But this is where the "test, trace, isolate" thing comes in. The long incubation period, which is a bad thing for spread, is now flipped to being quite a useful thing for contact tracing.

That guy who jumped off a plane. He gets sick a week later. He's brought to hospital and tested. Okay, we have a positive. Where did you go and who did you meet? Bring those people in and test them. If they're negative then there's no branch there (so no further contact tracing needed). If any of these people are positive, then ask them where they went and who did they meet. Bring those people in and test them. Rinse and repeat. Go down all the positive branches to find more positives, until there are no more branches to follow.

And here's the thing. To infect all those people, it could have taken the virus many weeks, but you can rush down the branches and pick these people up in days. And you're hopefully catching them early - they're still asymptomatic and might not know they've got it - to cut off the spread before it happens.

If you wait for symptoms before testing, then you're already two weeks and three people behind the curve. With "test, trace and isolate", then you can get ahead of it.

And the thing is, if you can reduce the infection rate from 1.3 to 1.0 then something magical happens in the maths. The formula is then "1^x" and, well, one to the power of anything remains one. It's no longer increasing. So reducing the average spread from 3 people to 1 person - be that by lockdown or contact tracing - halts the increase. Get it below one and it'll peter out of its own accord.

But, as the WHO's Director General put it: “Not testing alone. Not contact tracing alone. Not quarantine alone. Not social distancing alone. Do it all”.

And though no-one was listening to the WHO, that was exactly right. Imagine the country that had actually followed this, with German levels of testing, South Korean levels of contact tracing, AND had all the lockdown stuff in place as well - and had got all these things up and running early while there was, say, only a few dozen cases in the country. That hypothetical country - that, unfortunately, no-one in the world actually fits - would have killed this off and barely been scratched by it.

The WHO isn't a perfect organisation by any means. Indeed, there is, of course, no such thing.

But they issued the worldwide alerts in January and they were advising all these measures from the off. And, come on, look at that quote above and the famous "testing, testing, testing" - they were not mincing their words or being at all vague about things here. It's just that countries, all over the world, ignored them.

They thought "ah, this is just like the flu" and started coming up with insane "herd immunity" plans, and were loathe to shut down parts of the economy "unnecessarily" (except, of course, events since have absolutely 100% proved just how bloody necessary it was to have done that back then - because they didn't, and that's, in fact, shaft the entire world economy massively more for their delay). And they're still - such as Trump - rather insanely insistent on re-opening the economy again, when they're nowhere near having this problem under control (America has about 30K cases a day right now).

I was saying this from the off. As this is exponential growth, then you have to jump in early. You have to get in fast, before it gets a foothold. Not dither and delay for a week, not bothering to ban mass gatherings or close schools, after already wasting a week talking about "herd immunity" which is an insane non-plan.

And this is what South Korea also neatly demonstrates: If you're in there straight away, no delay, to start testing, tracing and isolating from the first cases, then you can actually get this under control, without national lockdowns and shutting down most of your economy. If you attack an exponential, while it's still down in the low numbers, then you can prevent it ever getting to the big numbers in the first place.

Seriously, if all these nations had started moving just a week or two earlier, then the numbers would have been logarithmically less. Like South Korea's.

And the idea that it couldn't be done is smashed by Germany. They did it. They listened to the WHO advice and got their testing regime up to strength and you can see the difference in the numbers. More impressive, but their mostly land-locked geography in the centre of Europe would actually be working against them.

Unlike, you know, a more naturally-defended island, who could have cut off transmission almost totally, by grounding planes and not letting ships dock (or, you know, do the "2 weeks quarantine" thing - you can travel in and out, but you've got to sit in quarantine for 2 weeks, to be sure you've not got it and can't pass it onto anyone). And then waited for things to die down, before releasing the brakes gradually. Which would have been a touch of self-inflicted economic harm, true, but as absolutely nothing compared to what we have now, which has felled the entire economy for months and put us in massive debt for a generation. Bailing out Richard Branson for a few weeks of inconvenience would have been absolutely sod all in comparison to that.

The dither and delay to start dealing with this was economically, socially and morally unacceptable. The WHO issued their worldwide alerts in January. There was enough time, but there was simply zero political will.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by gilesgoat »

@Klaxoncow : ok they did not start early, they started late, ok they done something, maybe not the best but they done/are doing something.

The question still remains "how/when all this is going to end ?".

Economy is being streteched, people are getting stretched, there's not a precise sight of "what and when" is going to happen.

Now Trump says "he's going to re-open" .. I'd expect then "the mass exctinction" happening as the contagion will spread 10X faster or he's going to eat back his words saying "we still keep closed" after that time.

I think "USA is definitely going to be hit the most" cause they really DO NOT have "a social state", God forbid that, you can't have that in USA ! .. and now they are paying "the highest price for NOT having anything like that".

Hopefully at least some people will realize that "without some of it, you can't go on that well when shit happens" .. or maybe not, it's all a conspiracy by EU, China, Bill Gates and Rockfeller and The New World Order and The Globalists as Alex Jones says .. of course .. this is all a man-made move to de-stabilize USA but The Real Patriots will FIGHT back and win ..

.. starting with destroying 5G mast towers :roll:
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by Little stoned kiwi »

gilesgoat wrote: - you start social distancing/lockdown
- people thinks "it's not working that well it's a pain in the arse"
- it actually starts to work,eventually cases go down
- people gets tired of distancing/lockdown begin to think "it's not longer necessary"
- restrictions get removed TOO SOON, people are so happy go back to normal way

TOTAL DEATH AND DESTRUCTION AT UNMANAGEABLE SCALE

The real risk is "removing restrictions too soon", sadly nobody seems to know well when "too soon" is .
That's exactly what's happening in New Zealand now. It looks like we'll be moving to level 3 where there's restrictions. Getting back to work but having to follow social distancing.
It sounds fucking awful. Work will be tedious and difficult. Shopping will continue to be a pain in the ass with less time to do it because people are working (no nipping into the supermarket after work, etc.). And the schools reopening; what's the bloody point? Schools won't be able to enforce social distancing as they are like chicken farms for children. The younger ones will have to go to daycare as their parents have to go to work, etc. It's going to be more frustrating than the level 4 lockdown.
I'm biased though. I love the lockdown, and don't want to go back to my job as I haven't been happy there. Fortunately I had another lined up in IT before the lockdown working with Mikrotik routers, so there's that to look forward to.
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