Politics Thread!

[PFVA]

Keeping my fingers crossed that Bolsonaro is voted out by the end of the day but it's not being as easy as it should.

[merman]

Braverman lied about reporting her email mistake, meaning Sunak lied to the House during his first PMQs.

Now it turns out Liz Truss’s phone was hacked by Russians while she was Foreign Secretary - and Boris Johnson and Cabinet Secretary Simon Case* covered it up, allowing Truss to stand in the leadership election and screw the country over with her 45-day reign of error.


*I am suspicious that his name is so conspicuous in the coverage of this hacking story - almost as if to get him out of the way because he opposed the Braverman appointment.

[Felonious Feline]

Been on holiday for a week - anything happened whilst I was away? Seems quiet...

[The ghost of raids past]

Braverman lied about reporting her email mistake, meaning Sunak lied to the House during his first PMQs.

Now it turns out Liz Truss’s phone was hacked by Russians while she was Foreign Secretary - and Boris Johnson and Cabinet Secretary Simon Case* covered it up, allowing Truss to stand in the leadership election and screw the country over with her 45-day reign of error.


*I am suspicious that his name is so conspicuous in the coverage of this hacking story - almost as if to get him out of the way because he opposed the Braverman appointment.

being hacked by the Russians doesnt ban you for running for Conservative leader. why the hell should it ?

[PFVA]

Keeping my fingers crossed that Bolsonaro is voted out by the end of the day but it's not being as easy as it should.

My wish is coming true.

Lula is winning, but Bolsonaro only loosing by around 2 million votes.

Lula is a very good negotiator, he is going to need all his skills to be able to govern the country.

[tufty]

That's massively good news for the planet (and the Brazilians) Let's hope Bolsonaro goes quietly.

[Felonious Feline]

Is this the end of the age of popularist politicians? In recent years we've had Trump, Johnson, Chavez, Burlusconi and Bolsanaro (there's probably hundreds I've forgotten/not heard of). All have left with their countries in a bit of a mess. I guess you could also argue that Putin, Lukashenko and Duterte were elected by appealing to the masses (what they did after election is a different thing altogether).

Whilst their messages are simple and easily understood by the electorate will they now be seen through? Or are we just waiting for the next one to rise?

Does social media help or hinder them?

[PFVA]

That's massively good news for the planet (and the Brazilians) Let's hope Bolsonaro goes quietly.

They won't go quietly. Bolsonaro's party has elected a lot people to the Congress. Lula's worker's party lost in São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro. Ironically one of the things that lead to loosing São Paulo was Haddad's environment protection measures.

Another thing that influenced in São Paulo and the other rich states of the South was Malone's victory in Italy. Italian's are the biggest community there of European origin. Personally I think that Maloni is by far not as bad as Bolsonaro. But lots of people were saying that if Maloni is good for Italy, Bolsonaro is good for them.

Another thing is the evangelic vote. Bolsonaro spent a lot of time campaigning in evangelic churches, and was smart enough to have his wife campaigning at his side and for him in those areas. She is a true evangelic, something I don't believe he is.

On the good things it appears the military is not interested in setting a dictatorship or even support a government by Bolsonaro. He has a lot of friends in the military, and gave them several jobs in the government but they are older, and retired from the military. And the younger ones grew up after 1980 in a democracy and have different ideas.

Also the US that supported and even helped establish right wing governments in Brazil and other places in South America because they were afraid of the Communist Soviet Union does things differently nowadays. And besides Bolsonaro is too extreme for Americans.

[gilesgoat]

That's massively good news for the planet (and the Brazilians) Let's hope Bolsonaro goes quietly.

They won't go quietly. Bolsonaro's party has elected a lot people to the Congress. Lula's worker's party lost in São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro. Ironically one of the things that lead to loosing São Paulo was Haddad's environment protection measures.

Another thing that influenced in São Paulo and the other rich states of the South was Malone's victory in Italy. Italian's are the biggest community there of European origin. Personally I think that Maloni is by far not as bad as Bolsonaro. But lots of people were saying that if Maloni is good for Italy, Bolsonaro is good for them.

Another thing is the evangelic vote. Bolsonaro spent a lot of time campaigning in evangelic churches, and was smart enough to have his wife campaigning at his side and for him in those areas. She is a true evangelic, something I don't believe he is.

On the good things it appears the military is not interested in setting a dictatorship or even support a government by Bolsonaro. He has a lot of friends in the military, and gave them several jobs in the government but they are older, and retired from the military. And the younger ones grew up after 1980 in a democracy and have different ideas.

Also the US that supported and even helped establish right wing governments in Brazil and other places in South America because they were afraid of the Communist Soviet Union does things differently nowadays. And besides Bolsonaro is too extreme for Americans.

Just to be precise is "Meloni", like the plural of "Melone" which means "Melon" and "Melons".

Wow if you consider Meloni "moderate" compared to Bolsonaro means he's quite a piece then ...

Personally as in ITALIAN I *DO NOT* support and/or think "Meloni is good for Italy", nor any of the right-wings parties we have now and EVEN LESS "The 5 stars movement" .. problem with Italy is "there's almost nothing left else that can be voted" .. it's ALL fucked up "to the max"

"Berlusconi" insists to be "best friend with Putin" .. "5 Stars" .. "a bunch of nutters" .. "Salvini" .. "let's shoot all the migrants" ( too expensive to send them to Ruwanda ) .. "Meloni" .. "I say I am not fascist but I am born from there" .. it's a fraking mess at the point you CAN'T even pick up "the least worst" they are ALL "worse"

The problem I DARE to say with those Italians living is Brazil is that THEY ARE NOT LIVING IN ITALY ! So they don't see first hand what's going there.

Me too sometime "I fall of the chair" when I finally manage to hear "what's going on there" from my bro in details "I can't even recognize the Italy of 5 years ago" and I DO am "I touch almost daily" with my parents/etc. ( that refuse me to give me "explanations" becuase "it's so bad it's not even worth it" ).

Heck "before I left Italy" I rememeber "there was such a thing like the Communist Party, the Socialist Party, the Radical Party, various 'left movements' .. now THERE'S NOTHING of all that, they are all GONE !!!

Beppe Grillo WAS A COMEDIAN, a quite strange one, NOT "a party leader!!" ..

Even as a comedian he was "quite a bit surrealist" ..

When I was in the school, they gave us ( for free ) anti-polio, anti-diptheria, anti-whatever vaccines .. NO ONE WAS COMPLAINING ! THEY WERE ALL HAPPY ! .. now we have "No Vax movements" and doctors anti-vaccine !!

There should be "some movement" of stuff for/of people ( a bit like me ) that feel "with no country/politics to fully believe in" I mean "I am the kind of person that could feel 'home' the same on Mars or Venus (*) and probably even better on a planet filled with green lizards " but at the same time "never accepting anything fully" because it ALWAYS gets to a point where "politics and such is TOO WERID to be fully embraced".

Mah ..

I think many of those "or European origin" could be well scared if they take "a really closer look" of what Europe is today VS what they think it is ...

I don't say it's worse but I am sure is very different than what they think it is or should be.

(*) I know you can't live on Mars/Venus, not with this kind of body anyway but it's a retoric argument

[PFVA]

Ow good just watching the news. All our TV channels are in Brazil.

Apparently all the lights of Planalto's Palace (the President's residence) were turned off at 1:30am after the Electoral Court declared Lula's victory.
And this morning Bolsonaro is not answering the calls from his own ministers. They are being told he is in his private courters and doesn't want to talk to anyone

Very dramatic.


Note: Giles, if you say all of that to Bolsonaro he will simply say you are an Italian communist. And he thinks all communists should be shot which is a lot of people because from his point of view lots of people are communists even when they are not. It's just like Trump supporters calling Obama and Nancy Pellosi communists but Bolsonaro uses a more violent speech.

[gilesgoat]

Ow good just watching the news. All our TV channels are in Brazil.

Apparently all the lights of Planalto's Palace (the President's residence) were turned off at 1:30am after the Electoral Court declared Lula's victory.
And this morning Bolsonaro is not answering the calls from his own ministers. They are being told he is in his private courters and doesn't want to talk to anyone

Very dramatic.


Note: Giles, if you say all of that to Bolsonaro he will simply say you are an Italian communist

WHY do you think my name is "Ivan" ? .. you should check the history of Italy around 1970 and especially Friuli, the region where I live(d).

In 1970 "the unions were not too strong" so "the workers" had no one to refer-to for "worker's rights" but "The Communist Party" which was VERY STRONG in those times.

Most Italian houses at the time had a copy "Of The Red Book of Mao", some even had pics of "Que" and "Fidel" on the walls

The way I've seen it in my youth was that "The Communist Party" was NOT "just a party", was almost "a pseudo-religion", "a life philosophy", "the thing that will change the world" ..

Mind you Italian communism was "pretty different" than other communisms interpretations around the world ( so been told ), people in taverns and hostarias "when they started talking about communism politics suddenly they all turned into communist-intellectuals"

Often "pretty drunk communist theoriest" were heard with "many interpretations" about how Communism should be/should be applied.

First of May in Monfalcone "the whole town was full of red flags", it was "a sea of red", "communist/russian songs all over the places with speakers".

"Feste de l' UNITA' " ( communist party country fairs ) were so common every summer there were N of them all around ( where usually you went there to drink wine, eat polenta and sausages and play some silly country fair games ).

So no .. "I know NOTHING about Communism"

NOW it's ALL GONE, NOTHING of that EXISTS any more .. A LOT of those "ultra communists to the core" people .. voted Berlusconi time ago

Everything changed face/colours/names N times ... ..

You don't know any more really what to belive in ..

There were people going like this ( see at 0:41 ) .. "I AM COMMUNIST LIKE THIS NO LIKE THAT !!!"



NOTE : this is a segment from a movie "Un sacco bello" ( i.e. "So much beautyful" ) where the main actor, Carlo Verdone, does a number of different characters. Part of the story is about "that hippie guy" that escaped Rome to go a live with a "commune" and his dad ( Mario Brega ) finds him on the streets of Rome and convince him "to come home for a cup of coffee" while secretly inviting "some of his friend" to "have a chat" and convince him to return back home "to his old life".

The plan backfires in a BIG way, turns out "all his SO supposedly normal/best friends" when confronted and questioned turns out they all have "very weird lifestyles" and in the end "the hippie" was "the most normal of them all" so reinsigned his dad give him "his blessing" and he returns to this "commune" outside of Rome.

In this scene A LOT happens to be explained but at some point the girl accuses him "to be a FASCIO" ( i.e. slang for Fascist ) .. he goes on saying that "He's NOT ( just ) a Communist 'like this' but 'LIKE THAT' with not just one but TWO fists in the air"

This movie and that scene and especially the way the hippie talks ( with an extremely odd way of saying things ) because "so iconic" that been mocked a number of times, also the "I so' comunista cosi' !" became a way of saying, useless to say this movie is really A CULT in Italy and a true, even if exxagerated, but still a true "society snapshot" of what was REALLY going on in those times.

It is ironic but there REALLY were those kind of people NOT just in the movies !

ANY time I watch that movie from begin to end MAKES ME CRACK and laugh in tears

[zip accident]

The problem with communism used to be Marxism, which was very silly indeed.

Now Marxism has died, but nothing has replaced it. Fascism is stupid too, but for some reason it lingers on and even grows, despite being obviously wrong. The main problem is perhaps that fascism works to make money and power for the people at the top, despite being philosophically totally bankrupt.

I saw this last night:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63412651

Some crook is selling stuff, enough to make a comfortable living, off the back of calling terror victims liars and cheats when they aren't at all. It's a lie, and he must know it's a lie, but he makes money from it so he keeps on.

It's like that with fascism too I believe.

The main thing for socialism/communism/utilitarianism is not letting leaders make personal money or power from the support of the masses.

[merman]

So Braverman repeatedly sent Government documents from her private email but claims “there was nothing secret” was exposed.

And an inspection of the Manston migrant processing centre (designed to hold 1500 people for up to 24 hours) found over 3000 were held there last week. Diphtheria and scabies cases have been recorded, along with one inmate with MRSA, as people are forced Tom sleep on floors - for up to five weeks, rather than just 24 hours.

Of course, Braverman was warned of the overcrowding - and then moved 700 from the Dover facility attacked yesterday* into Manston, making the overcrowding worse.



*White man throws petrol bombs and fireworks, with intent to cause damage and hurt people - but he isn’t a “terrorist”, and there’s no calls to stop the people who radicalised him into action...

[Felonious Feline]

*White man throws petrol bombs and fireworks, with intent to cause damage and hurt people - but he isn’t a “terrorist”, and there’s no calls to stop the people who radicalised him into action...

It appears that he may have been mentally ill/unstable, which highlights another major issue at the moment.

[KlaxonCow]

and there’s no calls to stop the people who radicalised him into action...

In fairness, as it's the Brexiteers who fanned all these flames of racism surrounding immigrants, then I guess it makes sense that they can't pledge to stop the people who radicalised him... when those people would actually be themselves, and they know it.