stupid physics questions

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Re: stupid physics questions

Post by KlaxonCow »

Dio wrote:String theory's all unproven (and not terribly likely to be, I suspect).
Indeed. That's why I ended with "I'm not a physicist and I don't know what's actually correct".

All of the above could be total bollocks. String theory could be complete bullshit.


As Sabine Hossenfelder has argued, there's a more general problem in physics that there's perhaps too many "flights of theoretical fantasy" that really don't end up going anywhere:



The underlying problem being that Einstein went on a big "flight of theoretical fantasy" and, wow, he nailed it. It all fits together, it all makes sense, it all (so far) concurs with experiment.

Einstein said it himself. He had a conviction to unify things and that the universe, he felt, should just elegantly all fit together neatly. He gave it a go, and it worked for him.

But this fantastic success story has meant that, ever since, physicists are always trying to pull off that same trick again. If geometry could make sense of spacetime then, hmm, can "symmetry" just magically unify all of particle physics?

Ah, it's just such a tempting idea.

But I'm with Sabine that you do eventually have to link your flights of fantasy back to reality and experiment.

Even if it's purely practical: If you keep asking for money and producing nothing particularly useful, then folks will eventually just stop giving you money.
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Re: stupid physics questions

Post by Dio »

Publish-or-perish actually means the opposite is true - if you want to be a physicist you have to keep coming up with something.
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Re: stupid physics questions

Post by gilesgoat »

Ok "a stupid physics question of late night" .. .. " .. and here we see this stars as 3 millions years ago cause light took 3 million of years to travel to us" ...

Ok "fine" .. "light has a FINITE speed, distance is VERY LONG .. takes it time .. " ..

But .. wait a min .. you mean that for 3 millions of years that photon did not loose any energy at all/entered in contact with ANYTING and once we see it so "it enters our eye/camera screen" .. does it 3 millions years travel end up there ? "Converted into electrons once it strikes the camera sensor and/or absorbed by our optic nerve as we see it ?".

But but also .. "photons travel at light speed" .. from "their point of view" there's no time .. they can't "see" time pass by so they are "eternal" ?

Can you actually destroy a photon ? And how does that go with "something that should not perceive time ?" .. I mean if you destroy a photon there has to be "an instant" where it still was a photon and "an instant t+1" where it no longer exists .. but wait a min .. we just said that "a photon cannot perceive time" .. or "it's not inside time as we are ?" .. so how can it "move" from the instant "T" it exists to "the instant T+1 where it does NOT exist" ??

Or any time that happens "there's a split in the universe" where there's one reality where that photon keeps existing and one where it never existed ?

Then "to finish this late night reasoning" I HEARD this other story that "the photon does not perceive time, move across all the universe, actually you can say that it's SIMULTANEOUSLY in ALL the places of the universe" .. this last one I heard it but I can't belive it !

No that must be wrong, I bet there has to be some "quantum probability function" that express the "prob(F)" you can find a photon in a given place ? .. Unless turns out that funcition is '1' for every part of space ? But no can't be, a dark room has no photons and/or close to 0 so that before can't be true ?

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Re: stupid physics questions

Post by lazerwalker »

gilesgoat wrote:Ok "a stupid physics question of late night" .. .. " .. and here we see this stars as 3 millions years ago cause light took 3 million of years to travel to us" ...

Ok "fine" .. "light has a FINITE speed, distance is VERY LONG .. takes it time .. " ..

But .. wait a min .. you mean that for 3 millions of years that photon did not loose any energy at all/entered in contact with ANYTING and once we see it so "it enters our eye/camera screen" .. does it 3 millions years travel end up there ? "Converted into electrons once it strikes the camera sensor and/or absorbed by our optic nerve as we see it ?".
Pretty much, yeah. The only reason it reaches us is that there isn't a huge amount out there to absorb it along the way...
gilesgoat wrote:But but also .. "photons travel at light speed" .. from "their point of view" there's no time .. they can't "see" time pass by so they are "eternal" ?
They are a fundamental particle, so they don't have a point of view :wink:
gilesgoat wrote:Can you actually destroy a photon ? And how does that go with "something that should not perceive time ?" .. I mean if you destroy a photon there has to be "an instant" where it still was a photon and "an instant t+1" where it no longer exists .. but wait a min .. we just said that "a photon cannot perceive time" .. or "it's not inside time as we are ?" .. so how can it "move" from the instant "T" it exists to "the instant T+1 where it does NOT exist" ??
Sure you can destroy a photon. Don't get too hung up on time from the point of view on the photon, it kind of doesn't make sense as a concept, except as a limiting case when you consider speeds asymptotically approaching light speed. From our point of view, the photon is created at time t, and destroyed at t+1. From the point of view of something travelling along with the photon at almost the speed of light, the time between creation and destruction shrinks, so from the 'point of view of the photon', which in reality can't exist so really the limiting case as speed tends to c, no time passes between creation and destruction.
gilesgoat wrote:Or any time that happens "there's a split in the universe" where there's one reality where that photon keeps existing and one where it never existed ?
That's an entirely different thing. Apart from quantisation (ie the fact that photons come in lumps) you've been talking about an entirely classical process, none of this quantum weirdness.
gilesgoat wrote:Then "to finish this late night reasoning" I HEARD this other story that "the photon does not perceive time, move across all the universe, actually you can say that it's SIMULTANEOUSLY in ALL the places of the universe" .. this last one I heard it but I can't belive it !
As I said above, it's not so much that it's simultaneously at all places in the universe, but that creation and absorption happen simultaneously from the point of view of an observer who is travelling asymptotically close to the speed of light.
gilesgoat wrote:No that must be wrong, I bet there has to be some "quantum probability function" that express the "prob(F)" you can find a photon in a given place ? .. Unless turns out that funcition is '1' for every part of space ? But no can't be, a dark room has no photons and/or close to 0 so that before can't be true ?

HELP !
Now you are starting to get quantum, why not save that for another time...
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Re: stupid physics questions

Post by KlaxonCow »

gilesgoat wrote:you mean that for 3 millions of years that photon did not loose any energy at all
Yup, pretty much.

After all, when you say "losing energy", what's the photon losing energy to? Where would that energy be going?

Conservation of energy. In order to "lose energy", that energy needs to be going somewhere or converting to something.

But it's in the hard vacuum of space - so where would that energy be lost? Where would it be going?


This is a thing on the International Space Station. They have these big infrared radiators on the station, to radiate heat out from the station into space. Because the problem is that humans are warm-blooded - and, also, our electronic equipment generates heat - but they are surrounded by the hard vacuum of space. By convection / conduction, there's nowhere for this heat to go. So they have to convert it into infrared heat - photons - and then dump it, en masse, from big radiators. Otherwise, the temperature would just go up and up and up, eventually cooking the astronauts and cosmonauts on board.

It's one of those mad things that you ordinarily don't think about. Because, down here on Earth, we're surrounded by atmosphere and objects, which convect / conduct the heat away - often annoyingly so, in deep Winter, when you're trying to keep the house nice and warm - so we're used to the idea that there's always energy loss. Heat loss, photon loss over distance, a thrown object (like a baseball) eventually slowing down and coming to rest, etc. but that's because we're on a planet, in an atmosphere. So there's always friction and absorption and so forth going on.

Indeed, that was the measure of Newton's genius, in his First Law, that he told us that an object in motion stays in motion - or an object at rest stays at rest - unless an external force acts upon it. And, in space, there generally is no external force there. So, yup, if you threw a baseball in space, then it just keeps going. Indefinitely.

(Although, the way I like to reinterpret the First Law is just that an object in motion stays in motion - and we don't need the bit about "an object at rest stays at rest", if you just consider "at rest" to mean a motion of zero. An object with a motion of zero stays with a motion of zero, unless an external force acts upon it. Or, more generically, motion is preserved (because in the absence of anything external to come along and change things, the energy is conserved, as it has nowhere to go). Ah, this is a more Einsteinian way to think of it, where Einstein points out that there's really no such thing as "at rest" anyway - at rest compared to what? You might feel you're "at rest" right now, sitting in your chair, but you are, of course, actually on a spinning planet, orbiting the Sun, which is orbiting the galaxy, which is moving through the universe. Hence the name "Relativity" because, well, it's all relative, innit?)

Which is so unintutive to our experience here on Earth, where things always eventually slow down. Friction, air resistance, gravity. But his amazing insight - particularly for how many centuries ago Newton was predicting this - was that, absent all that crap we have down here on Earth, that baseball really would just keep going. Never losing any kinetic energy... not until it comes into contact with something or is perturbed by the gravity well of some object along its path.

(Worth noting that plenty of photons won't actually make it. There is the odd stray hydrogen atom or two floating around in the void, that a photon might encounter. But, of course, by definition, we never see those here on Earth. A variation of the Anthropic Principle - we only see the photons that make it, because if they don't make it, then we never see them.)
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Re: stupid physics questions

Post by zip accident »

KlaxonCow wrote:
gilesgoat wrote:you mean that for 3 millions of years that photon did not loose any energy at all
Yup, pretty much.

After all, when you say "losing energy", what's the photon losing energy to? Where would that energy be going?
Actually, they do lose energy. They are red-shifted, the Hubble constant. It's said to be because the space they are travelling through has expanded, but red shifted they are, so energy they have lost.

If it turns out there some sort of friction doing it, that will change the way we think light works, so maybe it's not that, but energy has been lost.

Mind you, 3 million years is peanuts, that's barely beyond the Andromeda galaxy, which is the closest big one to us, at that range there's barely any redshift.
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Re: stupid physics questions

Post by KlaxonCow »

I always had this mad idea, since learning about black holes.

Because, you know, they like to tell us that if you took the whole Earth and shrunk it down to the size of a sugar cube, then it'd become a black hole.

That, like, it's not about the overall mass. It's about the density of that mass. How tightly it's crammed together.

But, conversely, if you had a black hole the size of a sugar cube, then you could expand it to the size of the Earth.

And the mad thought is that we're inside a black hole. The universe is the inside of a black hole.

I know. But the point is that it's a density thing.

The universe is gargantuan in size. Space is big. So even if it's sparsely populated, as it is, it could still have a decent amount of density to it, overall.

This was just a mad passing thought for me, but someone actually went and checked:

https://www.iflscience.com/the-observab ... hing-71203

They created a "chart of everything". Like, it features everything from subatomic particles to super massive black holes and even the observable universe itself. All plotted on the same log-log chart to fit it all in.

Image

And the thing is, the observable universe crosses the "black hole" line. They meet.

Weirdly, though, this might explain things. Why is the universe expanding? What is dark energy?

If we're on the inside of a black hole, things are still falling into it from the "outside" multiverse. Stuff is falling into the black hole that is our universe from outside, feeding it more energy. Feeding energy into spacetime itself.

In this view, the Big Bang was a white hole. The theoretical idea that on the other side of the black hole's singularity - on the other side of "the pinch" - there's it's opposite number, the white hole, spitting it all back out again. Spitting out matter and energy and spacetime itself.

An interesting idea. Doubly so, now that science is telling me that a mad "sci-fi" idea I had once might actually be really what's going on.

Of course, if the universe is a black hole, then there's interesting implications. Dark energy is coming in from "the outside". Also, black holes decay through Hawking radiation. Or, put another way, it's not actually a fully closed system.

Mad shit.
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Re: stupid physics questions

Post by F-ZeroOne »

So our chances of meeting Dr. Hans Reinhardt might be a bit higher than first thought? :wink:
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Re: stupid physics questions

Post by Harlequin »

So black holes can themselves be full of smaller black holes?
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Re: stupid physics questions

Post by Dio »

It's worth noting before anyone goes all Brian Cox over the wonder of this that if the universe is reasonably well balanced between expansion and collapse (which it is known to be in terms of its age and density) then it seems by definition its average density must be pretty close to that of a black hole of its size. Which also means the weak anthropic principle applies.
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Re: stupid physics questions

Post by Dvorak »

Wait. The only fact is: this Universe, obviously, can make Black Holes.

Hypothesis: Universes can make Black Holes. Depending on their features. Maybe some can't. But those who can, will.
Your hypothesis: Black Holes can make Universes. Maybe they inherit their features? Maybe with some mutations?
Black Holes certainly do attract one another. Will their features recombine when they merge?

The weak anthropic principle - now by evolution.
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Re: stupid physics questions

Post by Dvorak »

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Re: stupid physics questions

Post by KlaxonCow »

Harlequin wrote:So black holes can themselves be full of smaller black holes?
If this hypothesis - and I should stress it's only a hypothesis, not a common consensus theory nor anything proved yet - is correct then apparently so.

Indeed, if it's right, then all those supermassive black holes at the centres of galaxies and black holes generally would very much feature heavily in the density calculations, I reckon.

Like, most of all the mass is there. Everything else is just the scale of a "rounding error" in comparison.
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Re: stupid physics questions

Post by Dio »

I'd say that if you are to chase this idea then basically you just want to do accountancy on the mass.

A black hole might contain 'something that behaves like a universe'. Its mass would be the same as the black hole (so even in the case of this universe's biggest black holes, the total mass of that universe would be far smaller than our universe). In turn, our universe might be contained within the black hole of a much larger universe than ours. (Which would mean Hawking radiation is an irrelevance; for a black hole with the mass of our universe it's small).

And you'd postulate the existence of some process that happens at the creation of a singularity that causes a sub-universe to spawn in new spatial dimensions, with a new 'big bang' manufactured from the mass of that black hole. Some of the after-effects of that process (most notably the bleeding away of mass due to potential gravitational wave emission during formation) might affect the early history of our universe, since it's no longer a closed system.

It's not completely implausible, although it's probably a bit pointless.
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Re: stupid physics questions

Post by ThetaReactor »

KlaxonCow wrote: Indeed, if it's right, then all those supermassive black holes at the centres of galaxies and black holes generally would very much feature heavily in the density calculations, I reckon.

Like, most of all the mass is there. Everything else is just the scale of a "rounding error" in comparison.
That's kinda how mass in general behaves, no? Things are mostly empty space, with the actual stuff concentrated into tiny little balls. Is gravity the nuclear binding force of a higher universe? Is that why it's so much weaker, because we're only perceiving the second-order effects?
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