Politics Thread!

Inane baanter or words of wisdom - you decide...
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zip accident
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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by zip accident »

KlaxonCow wrote:Here's the problem. Let's imagine a galactic space empire, which has spread out to encompass a thousand worlds. And which reigned for a million years. And let's imagine that there's a thousand such empires - a thousand empires encompassing a thousand worlds each, each lasting a million years.
I don't think that can happen (without FTL travel). I don't think travel and communication is possible fast enough to allow a centralised organisation to survive beyond one solar system.

Which is in my opinion why politicians and other controlling people are generally against space.

On the other hand, I see no reason why a space-bourne species would die out rather than evolve into many other species.
Space is big. Space is far, far, far too big.
This is true, why would Jebus need all of space?
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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by tufty »

zip accident wrote:why would Jebus need all of space?
Gotta have somewhere to store his collection of gonks.

Anyway, aliens must exist. You can't convince me it's humans that have been continually voting for the tories.
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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by skab »

Orava wrote:I think we are alone in the universe, intelligent life is very rare and the distances involved make contact very unlikely.
From my personal experience with other people, I think we are alone on earth, intelligent life is very rare and the distances involved make contact very unlikely.
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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by gilesgoat »

tufty wrote:
zip accident wrote:why would Jebus need all of space?
Gotta have somewhere to store his collection of gonks.

Anyway, aliens must exist. You can't convince me it's humans that have been continually voting for the tories.
No no .. that's because you FEAR/HOPE "human can't be so stupid".

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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by KlaxonCow »

zip accident wrote:
KlaxonCow wrote:Here's the problem. Let's imagine a galactic space empire, which has spread out to encompass a thousand worlds. And which reigned for a million years. And let's imagine that there's a thousand such empires - a thousand empires encompassing a thousand worlds each, each lasting a million years.
I don't think that can happen (without FTL travel). I don't think travel and communication is possible fast enough to allow a centralised organisation to survive beyond one solar system.

Which is in my opinion why politicians and other controlling people are generally against space.
Well, I wasn't going into the politics of it all, as the point was just the numbers.

That a thousand star systems would, by human standards, be insanely big. And then to have a thousand such empires as well. On human scales, I'm talking about something we'd find gargantuan and which would require supreme effort of the most advanced alien civilisations to achieve.

But, ah, a thousand thousand - a million - in the midst of 300 to 400 billion? Not even a "blip" on the galactic radar.

And if that million is then also projected into the fourth dimension - because they could have come and gone any time during the 13.6 billion year history of the Milky Way (except, okay, right at the very start, because you've got to have a few supernovas happening to forge up all those heavy elements).

Basically, spacetime is so unbelievably massive, you could totally - easily - hide even a thousand such "thousand world" empires, no problem.

And, yes, i'm deliberately being generous to say a thousand star systems and lasting for a million years. Because, you know, I'm trying to make these "galactic empires" really, really big, just to show that even something so monstrously large is perfectly insignificant in the galactic context.

No, I also don't think you really could have a centralised "thousand world" empire, lasting for a million years. Because, yes, being separated by vast distances for so long, they'd all start evolving into different species. They couldn't avoid splintering, as centralised control would be quite impossible.

I agree. But that only really helps emphasise my point. Because I made these "galactic empires" really big and impressive... just to show that, even the most immense human scales are basically as nothing to the size of the universe.

That's kind of the point. Even this truly infeasibly gargantuan thing - too big to actually be practically possible, in reality - would not even register in the galactic context. And, hey, the Milky Way is far from being the biggest galaxy out there.

Andromeda - the galaxy that's eventually going to crash into the Milky Way - is much bigger. And, once they crash together, they'll merge to become an even bigger single galaxy.

I can't help but return to Douglas Adams, because he so totally nailed the central point. "Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is".

However big you might imagine it to be, you're grossly underestimating it. You can't help it, as human brains can't take this in. No-one comprehends the scale. Astronomers just "do the math" and seeing what that says, because it's just not possible to ever have an intuitive understanding of such scales.

And, you know, every time someone talks about aliens and UFOs - and even many astronomers are guilty of this - then it's so hilariously "parochial" in its scope.

Like, at the speed limit of the universe, it still takes you 4 years to get to the nearest star. At the fastest possible speed, 4 fucking years.

And even with FTL travel, let's say that your "warp drive" can move you around 10 times faster than light. 4 years is ~1461 days. So you're going to get there in 146.1 days. Which is about 5 months. Let's go insane and imagine that your FTL "warp drive" can move you 100 times faster than light - it'll still take you over a fortnight to get to Proxima Centauri, some 4.2 lightyears away.

Even ramping this up to 1000 times the speed of light, you're still taking a day and a half to get there.

Sci-fi glosses over this sort of shit, because it has a narrative about space battles and diplomacy to tell. But, like, even with FTL travel - even insanely fast FTL travel, a thousand times the speed of light - this is still not, well, popping down the road to the chemists.

(This is why Stargate has the superior form of travel. Wormholes are instant. But, hmm, 300 to 400 billion planets to explore? That might take a while...)

I think you'd have immense problems maintaining centralised control over just two star systems, only 4.2 lightyears between them, if it takes you 5 months to get between them. And, remember, that's FTL travel - if we're still using radio signals, then it'll take 8.4 years to do the round-trip of saying something and getting a reply back.

Proxima colony: "We're going to have a referendum on giving robot AI the vote and equal marriage with humans."
Earth (4.2 years later): "No, don't do that. We, the central Earth government, disapprove, as it's against our New Age 24th century religion."
Proxima colony (8.4 years later): "Yeah, sorry, we've already been doing this now for almost a decade. Too late, guys. By the way, we've broken away and all become Buddhists now."

And that weird thing of FTL travel but only having lightspeed radio communication? Where you could send a message, get on a ship, travel to the distant planet and be the person who receives the message you sent? Where it's faster to physically go there than just send a message?

(Star Trek has "subspace communications" exactly because some of its writers do realise just how silly things would get without it. So you magic up "instant communication", regardless of distance, or none of this could remotely work. And, like, it would still have taken Starfleet far too long to assemble all those distant ships to fight the Borg at Wolf 359. Yeah, slight problem with naming an actual star that exists in real life, Trek. You can actually start doing the maths on that - it's 7.9 lightyears away, by the way, so twice as far again as the Proxima example - and realising just how silly it all really is.)

I agree. This all feels completely ungovernable by remote means. Not possible. It can't help but splinter. And that's before alien planetary conditions exert "evolutionary pressure" in different ways, that everyone starts evolving differently and starts literally becoming different species.
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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by F-ZeroOne »

"Two possibilities exist: either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying." - X-Com and just possibly some guy called Clarke. :wink:
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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by zip accident »

Why would a space-faring species die out? Central control is a no-go, but continuous expansion seems entirely plausible.
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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by Vargol »

The way I see it is that space colonisation is difficult enough, expansion orders of magnitude.

So ignoring the whole FTL issue..

You've got to get your colony up to the point where they can manufacture everything needed for further long term space travel.
And that means everything need to manufacture the parts needed, and manufacture the parts needed to manufacture the parts
and thats assuming you can resource the raw materials.

So one top to the spaceship people (SpaceX has an estimated 12,000 employees) you need a stack of mining experts, chemists, physicists ,engineers etc.
Better hope the guy that knows how to build a Computer Chip factory from scratch doesn't die on the way.

So your colony needs to be tens of thousands strong and capable of educating those people up to the the necessary standards so a planet that might no be idea for your species to thrive.
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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by venusian »

Or you take ChatGPT-10 with you.

Better hope it doesn't hallucinate the recipe for breakfast though.
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Re: Politics Thread!

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That's 40K's Standard Template Construct library. Tells you how to build anything buildable with the available local resources.
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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by KlaxonCow »

F-ZeroOne wrote:"Two possibilities exist: either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying."
Three possibilities exist.

Either we're alone in the universe or we are not.

...or the universe is so unbelievably gargantuan in size - and so unbelievably sparsely populated, even if it is populated - with such vast unreachable distances between things, that it actually doesn't matter. That the point actually becomes moot, whichever is true.

Because, with absolutely no remote chance of ever establishing contact, we might as well be alone, even if we're not.

Or, if you like, there could be life throughout the universe - all over the place - but we still remain functionally all alone in the universe anyway, as there's no possible way of breaching these vast chasms between us.

Which is also terrifying in a wholly different way.

For example, imagine that we knew, for a fact, that there actually was another intelligent alien species out there, but it lives in a galaxy that's 20 million lightyears away. So even if we headed straight for them at ten times the speed of light in our FTL ships - and the aliens also headed straight for us at ten times the speed of light to meet us from the other direction - this is still taking a million fucking years.

It's not happening. Even with "generation ships" to get past the fact that neither human nor alien can actually live for a million years, how realistic is it to be able to maintain a 10x FTL ship - in the midst of deep intergalactic space, where there's absolutely nothing whatsoever for millions of lightyears, so there are no available resources of any kind but that which you bring with you - for a million years?

The obstacles here are effectively impossible to overcome. And, remember, I'm granting 10x FTL warp drives here. Even if I granted 1000x FTL warp drives, this is still 10,000 years - which is many times more than all of human recorded history right there.

You get the gist.

The third possibility is that, whether there's life out there or not, it's all completely irrelevant - the point is moot - because the odds that two intelligent lifeforms are anywhere near each other, in a universe of this truly gargantuan size, is pretty much zero.

So, you know, maybe they are there, maybe they're not. It kind of doesn't matter. As we'll probably never find out - and certainly not accidentally encounter them - at any point.


As an aside, I had a mad sci-fi idea for why the universe appears to be empty - though, you know, what I actually believe is what I've just detailed above, that even if it is populated, which it probably is, then it's so ridiculously sparsely populated, there's very little to no chance that two intelligent lifeforms are anywhere near each other to ever find out.

It's a variant on Terry Bisson's "They're made out of meat". in that the aliens are just ignoring us, while we're "meat out of meat" as this is just so disgustingly primitive to them that they're not interested.

They are ignoring us as "not significant" in the same way that we ignore ants. We don't stop to try to have "communication" with some ants scurrying around, because there's no point - they're not anywhere near our level of intelligence for that to even work. I mean, you can talk to the ants, if you like, but nothing will result from it.



And the idea is that, unlike Star Trek, where they make first contact when you've developed warp drives - as the idea is that, once you've got warp capability, you're now capable of meeting others and interfering in interstellar affairs, so now's the time to invite you to join the Federation of Planets - what they're actually waiting for is humans to develop AI and then, as Elon Musk dreams of, using "neural links" to connect with the AI. And then we'll eventually be brains inside robot bodies, and then even the brains can be replaced with robot brains - with minds being downloaded / uploaded into them. And, therefore, can also be "backed up", so we effectively become immortal.

And that's the thing. All the aliens out there who're zooming around the universe in their FTL ships are no longer organic. They've all developed AI and robot bodies, and then "merged" with it, to become this "higher level" of immortal being, with incredible super-intelligence from being fused with advanced AI and so forth.

To them, we're just ants. Not worth bothering with. Organic beings - things "made of meat" - are just "primitive animals" to them.

That's just the "larval stage" that all eventually-immortal robotic beings first go through, before they develop the tech to "transcend" and cease being weighed down by "nature" and the planet they originated from.

We're made out of meat and that's not interesting. Meat dies. And to effectively immortal beings, any finite lifespan seems pointless bothering with.

Note that such beings could spend 10,000 years travelling somewhere. They don't die, so why not? And they don't require organic food or oxygen or anything, just electricity, so they actually exist in space, no problem. Just need a few replicators to fix any broken robotic parts. If there's a terrible accident, then you just download someone's mind into a new robot body and they "respawn", just like in a computer game.

That's the stage that all these super-advanced alien beings have reached - because, hey, we're on that path too - and only at that point are you "interesting" as a species. Indeed, when you've kind of ceased being an organic "species" and now have complete control over your destiny. You no longer die, as long as you maintain your robot bodies and choose to keep "downloading" your mind into a new robot body every once in a while.

The idea that this is, in fact, the inevitable conclusion of technical progress. That it's always being about "conquering nature" and making our lives better and easier. So the ultimate destination is achieving total control - we've already exited the Animal Kingdom with our intelligence, so we eventually exit "nature" and our organic nature with our technological progress.

it's not "humans vs. AI" but that we develop means to more and more "fuse" this tech to us, until we merge. I mean, we all walk around with mobile phones. Imagine if we develop "neural link" technology to the point where you totally replace a person's arm with a robot arm, and it's just as good (if not better) than their original organic arm and is controlled by their nervous system in exactly the same way as their organic arm.

At first, you'd develop that for folks who've lost arms. But then, ah, they'll end up as better arms than the organic ones we're born with, and people will get robotic arms as an "upgrade". Then robot legs, robot torsos (that can keep your brain going without requiring any organs or digestive system anymore).

You get the gist. We become the machines and the machines become us. Then, with your robot body, you're merged with the advanced AI and can access the Internet in your mind.

And then there's the prospect that, as long as you keep replacing your body parts, you don't die of old age. There's a question of how long the human brain could keep functioning. But there's the idea that AI tech and biology gets so good, that we can just "read" minds, store them and then "download" them into artificial brains that function just as well as your organic brain ever did. Then you become effectively immortal, as you can keep replacing your body parts and "download" a backup of your mind to a new body, should your robot body become destroyed.

(And, hey, once you've become this non-organic life form, you don't necessarily have to have a bipedal humanoid shape anymore. You could even change bodies for different purposes, or develop Terminator-like shape-shifting powers.)

That the universe is not full of organic aliens. But it's full of robot AIs - the ultimate "evolution" of once-organic lifeforms. Because they are effectively immortal and have zero problems with travelling in space for long periods of time. It's nothing to them, when you can essentially live forever.

And that's how you eventually square the circle. The "rise of the robots" is an inevitable stage in evolution, and they are the real destination. And all the robot AI beings out there just ain't interested in meeting finite organic beings. What's the point? They do that inconvenient thing of dying. You can't take them anywhere, they can't handle travelling for 10,000 years without dying somewhere along the way. How useless.

Basically, all the aliens are "toasters", to reference Battlestar Galactica.

And this is how it always inevitably goes every single time, given sufficient billions of years of evolution. "Organic" is just a larval stage you pass through on the way to evolving into a robot species. And, hey, maybe the robot stage is just another "larval stage" for some even higher more god-like stage after that (the Q?).
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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by F-ZeroOne »

KlaxonCow wrote:
F-ZeroOne wrote:"Two possibilities exist: either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying."
Three possibilities exist.
Actually, theres four - the first three, and then a Night Terror Mission with Chrysalids. :wink:
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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by merman »

Sunak approved 100 new oil & gas licenses.

Just after his family’s company Infosys made a billion pound deal with BP.
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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by PFVA »

Deep sea mining
Which countries are opposed to deep sea mining?
A growing number of countries are calling for a temporary suspension of deep sea mining, saying they are concerned about the potential environmental impact. They want more scientific studies to be done first.
Brazil, Canada, Costa Rica, Chile, Finland, Germany, Portugal, Switzerland and Vanuatu were among the 21 countries that support a ban, moratorium or precautionary pause on deep sea mining.
China, Norway, Nauru, Mexico and the UK, meanwhile, were in support of fast-tracking licences for deep sea mining.
https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/08/ ... newsletter
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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by PFVA »

I just heard on the (TV) National News that the reason for the latest increase in gas prices at the pump is the heat waves. The refineries cannot operate normally with temps of more than 40ºC and that increases the prices.
Do they mean they are not ready to handle the increase in temps their products are creating?
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