Politics Thread!

[F-ZeroOne]

Or, and I realise this is an entirely radical and unprecedented notion, Trump doesn't have a clue what hes saying and is just farting out words?

[venusian]

Or there's somebody in the background with their hand up his arse like a fetid Miss Piggy. But that way lie conspiracy theories.

[PFVA]

In the last couple of days I saw two good segments about the strategic importance of Greenland for the USA and Nato and also some details on their internal government, (both done by conservative analysts). The traditional lack of diplomacy in Trump's speech was also mentioned but that's the way Trump speaks.

[KlaxonCow]

Greenland's leaders have said that they're not for sale.

That really should be the end of the matter, as the will of the people of a country is sovereign, however strategically important it might or might not be.

Anyway, the Kingdom of Denmark is a NATO member and any independent nation of Greenland can be, by agreement, incorporated into NATO - indeed, it could be argued that, though not automatic, Greenland can "inherit" Denmark's membership in a "fast track" way for their inclusion.

At no point does America actually need to "own" the country. As fellow NATO members, America can absolutely offer to assist and defend it. In fact, America already has military bases there, working with Denmark, per that logic.

The age of "empire" is supposed to be over, and no countries should "own" other countries. In the same way that, since the abolition of slavery, no human may "own" another human being either. Granted, there are historical "properties" - remnant of empire - around the globe but the project ought to be dismantling what remains, rather than re-upping on the imperial inventory.

And, yes, I very much chose the comparison to slavery deliberately to emphasise that America "owning" Greenland against its will is really comparable to Trump personally owning black slaves to work on his cotton plantations. But actually worse, as you wish to enslave an entire nation en masse.

But, really, what we should really be worried about is Trump's threats to pull America out of NATO if other countries don't stump up enough cash (although he might actually have a good point that they really should do so), his want to please "strong leader" Putin who worries about NATO expansion, and his failure to cooperate with a fellow NATO member over Greenland.

It's like he's positioning himself to disband NATO in future. To pull America out of the international order, as he already did pulling it out of the Paris climate accords.

But, yeah, if Greenland has strategic importance, then talk to the people of Greenland about it. Denmark is a member of NATO. Work with them. If Greenland gains its independence, then offer them a continuation of their NATO membership and work with them.

You shouldn't need to "own" another country nor human being, when you can simply negotiate mutually beneficial terms - e.g. offer a wage and good working conditions on your cotton plantation and people will apply for the job.

Britain converted its "empire" to the Commonwealth. Same logic. The UK doesn't have to "own" India, when it can fairly work with and trade with India. instead of taking their natural resources, trade with them and pay for it.

That's how things are supposed to work these days. We abolished slavery, and the end of the age of empires was part of that - to stop enslaving whole nations en masse as well.

Greenland has said it's not for sale. That is the end of the matter.

But, by all means, feel free to offer deals - military protection, eventual membership of the United States or whatever else - to them, particularly as Greenland is endeavouring to have independence from Denmark, so a good deal might well be taken gladly.

But threatening to enslave them all - presumably by military conquest, as Greenland won't capitulate - is not the right way to go about it at all. Not least because, even if you succeed, then don't be surprised if a "Greenland Liberation Army" pops up and tries to terrorise you into changing your mind. "Sic semper tyrannis" and all that.

[zip accident]

The age of "empire" is supposed to be over, and no countries should "own" other countries. In the same way that, since the abolition of slavery, no human may "own" another human being either. Granted, there are historical "properties" - remnant of empire - around the globe but the project ought to be dismantling what remains, rather than re-upping on the imperial inventory.

These are fashions that come and go, the timescale of the changes is centuries, but it happens.

Sexual liberality came in with the "Regency Bucks", one "Who's your fat friend" later and we were on our way to putting skirts on table legs to stop people being aroused by them, now sexual liberation is back, but unfortunately, it's not going to last.

The empire went because Churchill spent it to stop Hitler. It was bankrupt when it was turned into a "commonwealth", basically it had no wealth.

America has a huge empire already, they just don't admit it because that way they can expoit the natives because the natives aren't citizens.

Speaking of citizens, the way the USA runs Costa Rica shows how they could control Canada without giving the Democrats or even democrats a huge majority. Costa Ricans are citizens of the USA, but if they want a vote for the government of the USA, they have to move to a State of the USA. Costa Rica might become a State of the USA soon, after about a century, Canada could wait equally long.

I give up, I can't edit this to get rid of the extra end quote. It's bizzare, it seems to be on the server, but it's as if any time I edit out one endquote it's replaced, I can edit out two, and that works, but if I try to edit one back in, it's suddenly two, and it's not my machine's paste going off because that's not what is in my buffer.

[PFVA]

I was trying to steer away fm all the theatrics going on in front of the TV cameras and social media.

The US is not going to militarily invade Greenland. They'll just pressure them in siding with them, as they always have done.

Greenland is not part of the European Union.
It's an associated state.
They had joined the EU has a member back in the 80s together with Denmark, but their citizens voted to get out because they disagreed with some EU policies mainly fishing rights. They elected to be an associated state and they have special trade and other agreements with the EU.

Right now there is 3 big powers competing for world leadership, the USA associated with Canada and EU, Russia and their associated neighbours, and China.

Climate change and the melting of the ice in the artic is opening new very important trade routes up there. China wants access to those routes and they are being quite successful with the help of Russia. The US wants to control as much of those routes as possible.

For now at least those 3 powers are going to negotiate, apply pressure, promise lots of development, do a lot of theatrics, specially with Trump as President but they are not going to invade Greenland.

People are starting to go around afraid of an immediate WW III with missiles flying all over sent by the US, the Russians, and China. At least for now that's not going to happen.

[zip accident]

I agree, there is almost no risk of a nuclear war.

Greenland is a large landmass, but its population is much too small to be quid quo pro for Ukraine, whereas Canada is much too big to compare to the Ukraine. If it's only Ukraine on the Russian side, Panama and Greenland are probably light in comparison, but Cuba would probably be a bit too much. Taiwan isn't a Russian objective, and China is definitely after something in the south china sea beside Taiwan, if there are negotiations somebody will find out what, but we might not be told before they take whatever it is they want.

I agree that Russia stands to gain a lot from global warming, Siberia is huge, easily as big as Greenland, and if both were fertile they could produce a lot of the world's food. The eqatorial seas might suffer from warming, but corals would migrate toward the poles, and the polar seas might become more productive, though they are already fairly productive.

It's going to be an interesting decade or two.

[KlaxonCow]

These are fashions that come and go

I remember an interview with Matthew Paris, when gay marriage became legal.

And whilst he was delighted that equal marriage was now a thing - and also overwhelmingly accepted by the public at large as well - he did voice concern that it had happened so quickly. His point was that social changes that can flip so quickly in a positive direction, could just as easily flip quickly in a negative direction.

That, indeed, if it is "fashion", as you put it, then fashions keep changing and bell bottoms could rapidly come back, just as quickly as they went out of style.

He had a point. Better that it's all built on a bed of much slower social change, that's seeped into the woodwork and the foundations of our culture, than for it to be a quick change of clothes. Because, after all, you can change your clothes back just as quickly.

But one would hope that, you know, the abolition of slavery was beyond a mere "fashion" of the moment, easily thrown out when we need some more cotton to be picked.

That it's superlative version, where a whole nation can be "owned" by another conquering nation, against their will, just because "might is right" would be equally morally abhorrent.

I mean, how does the logic work that I can't go to Greenland and enslave its individual people, but if I go there as a nation's military force and enslave everyone all at the same time, this is just fine?

That one human may not own another human being... unless they represent a whole nation, in which case it's just fine for them to own an entire country and everyone within it? There's an obvious logical failure there, if you think about it.


There are many interpretations. This guy thinks - going by Trump's previous track record as President - that it's all completely bollocks and is just a distraction, upon which he'll actually end up doing absolutely nothing whatsoever.



This might be going too far in the opposite direction. But he makes some generally good points in the midst of it all, so I'll post it.

[Dio]

Trump's a bullshitter. Lots of talk, not a lot of action. He is a little more effective than you might think in this, and his administration will likely be a little more competent this time round (although still likely heavily hamstrung by sycophancy being more important than competence and the fact that it's top-down, anything that makes news has to go through him).

[tufty]

Trump's a bullshitter. Lots of talk, not a lot of action. He is a little more effective than you might think in this, and his administration will likely be a little more competent this time round (although still likely heavily hamstrung by the fact that it's top-down, anything that makes news has to go through him).

I would disagree with the use of the word "competent" above. "Effective", maybe, as Trump is busy excising all the adults in the room and replacing them with people who are at least as maniacal as he is. None of them are competent at doing the thing they are supposed to be doing, they are there to remove the thing they are supposed to be doing. Add to this the whole Project 2025 thing being about removing career bureaucrats and replacing them with political appointees loyal to the great leader.

Dangerously effective.

[PFVA]

I agree with Biden, and I think that's not just in the US.

There is a "dangerous concentration of power" developing in the United States, President Joe Biden warned Wednesday in his farewell address to the nation. Biden, who leaves office in less than a week, used his parting words to expand on that concern, saying that an ultra-wealthy “oligarchy” is “taking shape in America.”

Taken fm US PBS news

[PFVA]

On a side line here.
It has been all over our news that the leaders of the European right wing parties all got invitations to Trump's inauguration addressed to the 'True Patriots'
Our noisy right leader got an invitation but he hasn't confirmed he will attend himself or send someone else. The same for Giorgia Meloni. Still according to our news Farage has confirmed his attendance, so has Marine Le Pen and a few others.

[KlaxonCow]

All the right-wing leaders and racists all sat together in one place?

Where's Guy Fawkes when you need him, eh?

[F-ZeroOne]

Screwing up the job?

[KlaxonCow]

In fairness, he didn't screw up, per se. He was betrayed. Ratted out.

The plan itself was perfectly legitimate and got very, very close to succeeding.