Politics Thread!

Inane baanter or words of wisdom - you decide...
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PFVA
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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by PFVA »

Harlequin wrote:
PFVA wrote:Americans consider free housing, free utilities, and free food like income-in-kind.
If you want to compute someone's income and they receive those free you add whatever other income people may have to the income in kind to come up to their monthly income.
Dinner parties must be a riot.

"You must give me the recipe for that excellent soup. And also tell me how much it all cost per person for my tax returns."
:lol:

It works like this.
For eg. someone works as a babysitter for 2-3 kids. Generally ilegal immigrants do that or tourists that are just experiencing life in another country for a short while. They get paid 500 dollars a month plus free housing and food.
They get into an accident and don't have insurance. There is no NHS but there is emergency medic-aid.
To get that they must verify their income. For that purpose not just 500 are counted but also the free housing and food, each state has a fixed amount that defines that determine your monthly co-payment on the expenses. Using amounts fm long ago
that person would have a co-payment of 300 to be met each month before the state pays the rest.
A similar process applies to disability payments, those for nationals, income in kind is also deducted from whatever they would receive.

Note: Long, long ago it was part of my job to know those things. Please give me European social democracy over that system no matter what the economy fashion nowadays even in Europe.. :roll:
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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by Dio »

Harlequin wrote:
PFVA wrote:Americans consider free housing, free utilities, and free food like income-in-kind.
If you want to compute someone's income and they receive those free you add whatever other income people may have to the income in kind to come up to their monthly income.
Dinner parties must be a riot.

"You must give me the recipe for that excellent soup. And also tell me how much it all cost per person for my tax returns."
You're looking at it from the wrong angle. The question is not "What did you get?" It's "Did you do any work?" The US is very clear that work of any kind is not permitted unless you have the exact right kind of visa for the work. I'd be wary of working even for free in the US.
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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by KlaxonCow »

In fairness, it was not so much whether or not what she did qualified as "work" or not by the visa rules, but her subsequent treatment being detained for 19 days and shackled in leg chains, waist chains and handcuffs, before being deported.

There is admittedly some irony in an overtly "white supremacist" Nazi-saluting administration treating the white Westerner breaching the visa rules, with an equal disdain as a non-white "filthy foreigner" drug dealer by shackling them in "slave chains". Although the actual lesson there is that no human beings should be so routinely mistreated, regardless of their race nor nationality, and shackles should only be employed where there is genuine risk of violence or flight risk. So, yeah, the cosmic irony that the racist administration ends up treating all "aliens" more equally is deliciously noted.

I was more suggesting to avoid visiting America, as it's now become an unpleasant and unwelcoming place. They'll find the smallest excuse to slap you in "slave chains" and deport you post-haste, for the political theatre of their domestic audience that they are "tough" (and, let's speak what's between the lines there, that they also hate foreigners that they're going to "punish" them for daring to not be Americans on American soil).

It's documentary that America is now increasingly fascist in its methods and there is apparently no "white privilege" to being a Westerner anymore. It's "America vs. the world" and Trump is not just abandoning ties to Europe over Ukraine. He's dumping us wholesale, it seems.

Sieg Heil.

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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by KlaxonCow »

Best President America never had



He's not telling them. He's asking them to tell him.
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Re: Politics Thread!

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What I don't understand is why some rich people like Nazis. It's in the name, National Socialist. Rich people don't stay rich under Nazis.
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Re: Politics Thread!

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The senior Nazi leadership - Goering was probably the most infamous for it, but he wasn’t the only one - had their snouts in the trough so far they probably needed SCUBA equipment [1]. The “Socialist” in “National Socialist” was really in name only, though one could argue that one of the reasons rich people didn’t stay that way under them was due to one Arthur Harris…

[1] Or at least oxygen rebreathers, SCUBA gear being squirrelled away in occupied France at the time…
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Re: Politics Thread!

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F-ZeroOne wrote: The “Socialist” in “National Socialist” was really in name only, though one could argue that one of the reasons rich people didn’t stay that way under them was due to one Arthur Harris…
A lot of the rich went straight to concentration camps or gas chambers, or fled leaving most of their wealth. I'm not convinced that they didn't put up taxes, they did a lot of building and making tanks and aircraft, the allies out produced them handily, but there was rationing.
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Re: Politics Thread!

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Saying that many rich Germans were Jewish or that most of the Jews who died in the holocaust were rich is an antisemitic trope. I'm sure you didn't intend it, but it needs pointing out.
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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by PFVA »

[quote="KlaxonCow"



It's documentary that America is now increasingly fascist in its methods and there is apparently no "white privilege" to being a Westerner anymore. It's "America vs. the world" and Trump is not just abandoning ties to Europe over Ukraine. He's dumping us wholesale, it seems.

Sieg Heil.

[/quote]

The U.S, is no longer a white people country.
And there is lots and lots of descendent of the non-white immigrants that support this 'revolution'.

As Trump said yesterday when signing something to finish with the federal Dept of Education," after 45 years we are finally doing it". This is a process that has slowed moved over the past decades. And they have lots of supporters who are not white.

If you look at Musk's task force going thru the Federal depts they are young and lots of them are of Asian descent,

They are friends with Europeans that defend this change and with the groups they call "The True Patriots" of Europe. They want Europe to make the same change they are doing. And there is lots of people in Europe that support them even in my little corner of Western Europe.

I can understand what's going on because I lived there fm 1985 to 2006. And in 1985 that process was starting, yes, Reagan, not Reagan himself but his administration. In the universities was evident already. It's very hard though to explain this to others because it's a long process with lots of variables.
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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by zip accident »

Dio wrote:Saying that many rich Germans were Jewish
Some were. I'm by no means saying most.
or that most of the Jews who died in the holocaust were rich is an antisemitic trope.
That is clearly false, most were poor.

There were many non-jews who also died.

I'm not understanding who the scapegoats will be this time, could be blacks, hispanics, any other race or creed, but how they do any of that without a huge backlash is not clear to me.
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Re: Politics Thread!

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And, of course, that's also the lesson that H.G.Wells was getting at in "War of the Worlds" as well.

The British Empire conquering the world. So he throws a spanner into the works. Here comes the Martian Empire, who're bigger and meaner than you ever were - with vastly more powerful weapons than your guns against the native's spears - and he lands them right in the heart of the British Empire.

Okay, see how you like it. The shoe's on the other foot now. Now you're the "primitive natives" against a vastly more powerful enemy. Let's see how you do. Oh, you're being slaughtered in a grossly asymmetric massacre? Hmm, maybe there's nothing intrinsically "superior" about you at all. Maybe you just have the better weapons.

And then, of course, the poetic touch that the Martians lose. Not to the great Empire, but to - as he puts it - "the lowest of the low". The bacteria wipe the Martians out, as they have no immunity to them.

Which reflects how both the invaders and the invaded died off from the exchange of viruses and diseases with the discovery of the New World, and just reminds us of the humility that all of us can be too easily brought down and even wiped out by a microscopic virus. There's nothing special about you, personally, just because you've got your hands on the better weapons (invented by the actually smart people).

Sci-fi's been telling this story all along. But everyone keeps missing the metaphors.
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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by Harlequin »

KlaxonCow wrote:… Hmm, maybe there's nothing intrinsically "superior" about you at all. Maybe you just have the better weapons.
Somewhat off topic, perhaps, but I was watching an old QI yesterday and was rather astounded by Giles Brandreth's definition of 'plutocracy'. This is the only clip I could immediately find online, at 10:13:

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Re: Politics Thread!

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zip accident wrote:What I don't understand is why some rich people like Nazis. It's in the name, National Socialist. Rich people don't stay rich under Nazis.
Bullshit. The "Socialist" bit in that is about as meaningful as the "Democratic" bit in the DDR. Or the "People's" bit in the PRC. Or, if you like, the "Democratic" and "People's" bit in the DPRK. "The Nazis were socialist" is a far right deflection talking point. It's absolute bollocks.

A lot of people got very very rich, and other became even richer, under the Nazi regime, and not just in Germany. The smart ones were able to keep their connections to the regime deniable or more or less hidden.
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Re: Politics Thread!

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https://www.twz.com/air/boeing-wins-air ... r-contract

Boeing has emerged as the surprise winner of the contract for the next generation "air dominance" fighter aircraft for the US military. Its designated the F-47, as a nod to the P-47 Thunderbolt of WWII fame [1], to honour the year the USAF was formed, and as a sop to a certain someones ego because of course it is. Trumps announcement of it is... well, if you're even vaguely familiar with military aircraft you're probably going to wince:

" 'It’s something the likes of which nobody has seen before,” Trump continued, as he outlined the F-47 in broad strokes. “In terms of all of the attributes of a fighter jet, there’s never been anything even close to it, from speed to maneuverability, to what it can have to payload … The F-47 will be the most advanced, most capable, most lethal aircraft ever built.”

Trump said he was confident that the F-47 “massively overpowers the capabilities of any other nation. There’s no other nation, we know every other plane, I’ve seen every one of them, and it’s not even close. This is the next level.”

As well as being “equipped with state-of-the-art stealth technologies,” which will make it “virtually unseeable,” the F-47 has “the most power of any jet of its kind ever made,” Trump claims. “Maneuverability … there’s never been anything like it, despite the power and speed,” he added.

Trump said that the F-47’s “speed is top, over two, which is something that you don’t hear very often.” This would seem to imply a top speed in the region of Mach 2.

According to Trump, an experimental version of the F-47 “has secretly been flying for almost five years.” This is in line with the announcement of September 2020, from Dr. Will Roper, then Assistant Secretary of the Air Force for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics, that a previously undisclosed NGAD demonstrator had begun flight testing. Since then, it’s been reported that at least three NGAD-related demonstrators have flown.

The president also announced an aspiration to have the F-47 enter series production before the end of his term in office, which ends in January 2029.

“They’ve already built much of what has to be built in terms of production, including the sheds,” Trump said, in reference to investments in infrastructure at Boeing’s St. Louis, Missouri, plant.

As for the unit cost of the new fighter, “we can’t tell you the price, because it would give it would give way to some of the technology and some of the size of the plane,” Trump said.

Perhaps most surprisingly, Trump said that U.S. allies “are calling constantly” with a view to obtaining an export version of the NGAD fighter. He said that the United States would be selling them to “certain allies … perhaps toned-down versions. We’d like to tone them down about 10 percent which probably makes sense, because someday, maybe they’re not our allies, right?' "
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Re: Politics Thread!

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Harlequin wrote:was rather astounded by Giles Brandreth's definition of 'plutocracy'.
You do know that Giles Brandreth was a Tory MP for the City of Chester, right?

But, yeah, it is telling when someone says "superior" when they just mean "wealthy". But luckily the show is now hosted by a Dane, who knows the difference to insert the needed correction.

It's actually fascinating how cultural memory works. In that you'd think all this 19th century quasi-religious "deserving poor" bullshit should be long dead by now, but the "superior" classes, in which Giles mingles, have been holding onto their delusions of grandeur all this time, it would seem.

I call the obsession with class in the 19th century quasi-religious because it is all wrapped up in old religious notions that the rich are rich because God favours them, and the poor are being "punished" for their laziness and sinfulness. That "Protestant Work Ethic" and the idea that "the Devil makes work for idle hands".

There was a dimension, in early centuries, that displaying your wealth and status was more than showing off. It was proof positive of currying God's favour. Of being of "superior" stock and moral character.

This dimension is often overlooked in the feminist narrative, as they misconstrue the true origin of the "kept woman". The well-to-do husband prohibited his wife from working, as a demonstration of his wealth and, thus, "superior" social status. Poor women absolutely did work. Typically, their fingers to the bone. They had to do so, in order to support their family. It might have been menial work, as a maid to a rich home or a seamstress or whatever, but you did whatever you could to keep the family afloat.

It was the middle classes and above, who "kept" their women. As a display of wealth and, thus, "superiority" and social status. The husband being so wealthy that, no, there was no requirement for all the family to pitch in. His great wealth could happily "keep" them all indefinitely.

All this stuff was intertwined with each other. It was not simply a vulgar brag to ostentatiously display your wealth, it was a qualification into the "superior" social circles, who curry God's favour. The poor are poor and in misery, because God looks down on them as undeserving.

You absolutely still hear, amongst Americans, the notion that blacks are poor because they are "lazy". That God helps those who help themselves.

Whilst the Europeans mostly threw off a lot of this shit - Giles Brandreth and his ilk to one side - because the World War made very clear that God was not really favouring anyone, in the ruins and destruction it left behind, America never really had that experience and a lot of these quasi-religious notions of how wealth and "moral character" are supposedly linked persists in that God-fearing streak of America.

The Mormons have officially dropped the notion that black skin is "the Mark of Cane", the heritable sign of their irredeemably sinful nature. But, ah, they still believe it deep down. They just know it's bad PR to state it openly.

A characteristic of American Christianity compared to its European counterpart is that it's a lot more cruel and judgemental. It still has some true belief left for the idea that God must curry favour for Trump, because look at his wealth. And have no empathy for the "undeserving poor", as this is only God's rightful punishment of their "lazy" idle sinfulness. American employment law offering almost no vacation time at all, no maternity leave whatsoever, not even some compassionate leave for a funeral because "the Devil makes work for idle hands". The Protestant Work Ethic.

In fairness, the constant refrain of "hard-working families" in British political rhetoric still harks back to these notions. After all, consider the "as opposed to...?" implications, that hard-working families deserve a break and a hand up... but the "undeserving poor" - the chavs resting on benefits - can drop dead, for all we care.

I still remember that the first thing the Tories did, with Cameron taking over from Blair, was rush to Parliament to "punish" the disabled. To change the basis of benefits from ensuring that every disabled person was cared for - and accepting that some fraud would take place - to ensuring that no fraud occurred, and accepting that this could leave some disabled people to fall through the cracks.

Rushed through as a special first order of business, before they'd even settled in as the new government. Ensuring not a single penny of their taxes went to "the undeserving poor" was a priority, over making sure that the most vulnerable didn't starve to death.

Churchill noted that the way to judge a civilisation is how it treats its poorest and most vulnerable. His focus was on prisoners - if criminals are treated cruelly, with vengeance, not justice, as the forefront of policy then this is a society showing its true face. But I'd extend it in agreement with him that the true test is how a society treats the disabled. Also, its minorities too, of course.

But the litmus test is the disabled. Because this cuts right into the notions of "the deserving poor", as these people have been crippled by God. These "children of a lesser god" have been stripped of some of their faculties, in God's infinite wisdom. Their "punishment" is all the more severe than simply being left to the squalor of poverty alone. They have to do so without sight, or hearing, or legs by which to walk.

God must truly loathe these people with the greatest passion to inflict such "punishment" upon them. So I find this to be the true "litmus test" of a civilisation - how we know we're headed to Hell in a handbasket - when it shows no empathy whatsoever to its most vulnerable.

Who are already suffering, through no fault of their own whatsoever. Because, come on, there is no God "punishing" people. We know how this actually works - people lose sight or hearing or their limbs through disease and accident, not "God's plan". No-one "deserves" disability. But shit happens in a chaotic universe. And, crucially, it absolutely could happen to you tomorrow - in fact, as we all lose our faculties with age, it almost certainly will be coming, if accident nor "natural causes" don't take you first.

Such an unnecessary and preventable cruelty. That serves no purpose - because you can't be "redeemed" if there was no sin, and sight doesn't magically come back, if you labour hard. Because these things are, in fact, not connected and never have been, but in perfectly silly delusions of religious belief.

There is no "superiority" or "inferiority". The universe doesn't work like that. Genetically, we're 99.9999% self-similar to each other. We're attuned to spot the differences so we recognise each other as a social species, but there really are almost none, biologically speaking. To an outside alien eye, we really do all look the same to them.

Even within our species, if racism has kept you from becoming "attuned" to spotting the differences, by never actually meeting sufficient numbers of a race to learn to tell the difference, the internal "alien" eye also can't tell us apart either:



It's all so desperately tragic. Because the whole thing is and has always been complete bollocks. Yet man inflicts cruelty onto man - or woman, "keeping" her as a display of "superiority" that our women (our property) need not lift a finger, or the poor and disabled, left to rot in a damp dark corner - over absolutely nothing whatsoever.

I've heard it from Americans themselves, that MAGA voted to "punish" others. To enact a cruel revenge on the most vulnerable - the poor, the disabled, minorities, people suffering gender dysmorphia, etc. - those who need and deserve it least, for there is no "God's plan" being enacted here. It's just random tragedy that you're compounding with deliberate tragedy to no useful end, as it makes you feel "superior". A feeling that's never justified, as there simply is no such thing.

I like Giles, honestly. Even as a Tory MP. He's not like that through malice, but generations of "cultural memory" that still infect far too many. He wouldn't want to be consciously cruel, even if he'd happily vote for a blind man to starve to death, on the off-chance some "undeserving poor" fraud might slip through the net, when his actual personal tax bill wouldn't be changed one iota.

Seriously, it wouldn't be. As I'll go on to address.
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