The Return of Commodore?

[KlaxonCow]

The YouTuber, Perifractic, has spearheaded a move to buy Commodore (their trademarks) and is "getting the old band back together" - involving as many original Commodore employees and Commodore fans, such as Jeri Ellsworth, in this venture - to bring Commodore back and make it a viable thing again.





No idea if this will succeed or quite what he's got planned - beyond the idea that this is for the love of the brand itself, and is not just another money-grabber getting their hands on a cherished brand name to sell any old crap, as has happened a few times already.

But it's certainly something you don't see every day, and if he actually pulls it off and produces something good out of it all then good on him.

[tufty]

He clearly cares about Commodore. The question has to be, though, does anyone other than a small subset of techno-nostalgic middle class blokes aged 45-60 care?

I mean, I grew up with CBM, and I really don't care at all.

[KlaxonCow]

He clearly cares about Commodore. The question has to be, though, does anyone other than a small subset of techno-nostalgic middle class blokes aged 45-60 care?

Yeah, this is why I said I had no idea if he would succeed.

But, then again, he only needs to crowd-source / angel-invest a few million, and that's been achieved before by Kickstarters who've done a worse job of promotion than this.

Maybe it doesn't matter, in that if there's enough techno-nostalgic middle class blokes to meet the asking price, then they get the brand and if they're aiming for continued survival, rather than immediate profits, they could keep ticking over for a long while.

[gilesgoat]

They should get in touch with us, I am trying to convince Yak we should do one more C64 game

[Whiteball]

They should get in touch with us, I am trying to convince Yak we should do one more C64 game

And if they ever produce any new hardware maybe get a lightsynth in the firmware

[KlaxonCow]

I do believe part of the plan - at least mentioned in the video - is to give official "Commodore" licensing on some of the retro community's projects.

So 8-bit guy's "Commander X16" computer, which he called "Commander" as he couldn't officially call it "Commodore", might actually be granted the use of the name now.

The Commander X16 is basically his version of a "new" Commodore 8-bit machine. The "what if?" of imagining Commodore had made a new 8-bit micro.

We don't yet now if they do plan to produce new hardware, such as a new Commodore machine - and, if they do, whether they're going to go down the "a PC branded as Commodore" or actual "new" retro tech, like maybe a Commodore C256 or C512 or something - but the video does talk about it being a "community" thing and, therefore, some of the community stuff already out there could be officially brought under the Commodore brand. So it's actually "official" Commodore products.

He's already got some original Commodore people and big Commodore fans back to work on the project - like Bill Herd, Jeri Ellsworth, etc. - so I don't doubt if Llamasoft did contact them then he'd definitely know who you are (he's a big Commodore fan who grew up in Britain), and would love anything you could contribute.

[KlaxonCow]

Actually, wait.

Whilst nothing is confirmed in those videos, I'm thinking "why would you need Bill Herd on your team?". Because he does announce Bill Herd's participation in their project, and unless it's just to be an "ambassador" to lend some credence - to just be a famous face - then why else would you need original Commodore's principal engineer across a bunch of their old 8-bit machines?

If Bill Herd is there is actually do meaningful work, rather than just be a "celebrity face", for this new Commodore brand, that does kind of hint at new hardware, thinking about it, as that is what he did for the original Commodore back in the day.

But, that said, nothing is announced in those videos, just a lot of sprinkling of "watch this space, as we might have a surprise for you" throughout.

[Mayhem]

They should get in touch with us, I am trying to convince Yak we should do one more C64 game

I'll mention it to Christian

[tufty]

So there it is. The product they're going to release is ...

A new Commodore 64. Yep, FPGA, obviously, USB, and HDMI rather than tape / tv out, flashy lightshow case (odd in a computer marketed as "a distraction free computing experience", but otherwise it's just a C64. It'll sell to literally hundreds of fiftysomething C64 enthusiasts.

[KlaxonCow]

Interesting. As this appears to be a consolidation of C64-based projects that already existed.

The Commodore site provides the "Commodore 64 Ultimate" in either a translucent or classic beige breadbin.



But the use of the word "Ultimate" hints at these just being pre-assembled "Ultimate 64" main boards, which is a thing that already existed:



(This is not just a hint, in fact. One of the screenshots for the "Commodore 64 Ultimate" shows the internals - https://static.wixstatic.com/media/2056 ... 61~mv2.png - and it's a PCB match for the latest Ultimate64 main board, but in white.)

So this is not a new product, per se. You could already purchase the "Ultimate 64" main boards, and there are both "breadbin" and C64C style cases available to put your motherboard into.

But this was a DIY affair. What they seem to be offering here is that they'll put the "Ultimate64" board into a suitable case for you, selling it as a pre-assembled computer. And the fact that it can now officially sport the Commodore brand as a "Commodore 64 Ultimate", as a "Commodore" product.

Also on the Commodore site is a link to the "Commodore 64X PC" project - who now sport a "Commodore official partner" badge but are still selling it themselves - but who are a company that makes mini-ITX PCs, and one of the cases they make their m-ITX PCs inside is a C64 breadbin case (or, indeed, you can just buy the C64 case itself and build your own mini-ITX PC inside it, if you want).

Then the ArcadeR joystick, from RetroRadionics, is also a product that already existed - a 9-pin "Atari" joystick with retro "Competition Pro" stylings - but which is being officially sold through the Commodore site.

So none of these things are actually new projects. They're "community" projects that already existed but which are being consolidated under the "Commodore" brand.

And this flagship "Commodore 64 Ultimate" is just a pre-assembled "Ultimate64" - you previously bought the motherboard and a case, then put together a "modern C64" yourself.

So, in fact, they might potentially sell a few thousand of these. Because the Ultimate64 boards have been previously manufactured in batches of 500, and sold out entire batches of each type of board. And that's when it was just the board and DIY construction.

No, it's not going to set the world on fire. But I don't know that it needs to, does it? I guess as long as they shift enough of them to make the cash for the "Commodore" brand acquisition and then sell these "replacement" C64s to the retro community, then it's "mission accomplished", isn't it?


Because, in fairness, there's only two paths they can take with this. Either you sell "modern" retro tech, as they're doing here with pre-assembled "Ultimate64" computers, or you sell "retro" modern tech, which is what their "partner" mini-itx.com are doing - to build mini-ITX PCs inside a retro Commodore case. And when selling mini-ITX PCs, you're surely not expected to out-compete Dell or HP or whoever.

[venusian]

...or they could do whatever they think Commodore would be doing today if they'd survived. Actual real-world experience tells us that would have grown from the Amiga, not the C64. And by now it would look very much like a Windows/Mac/Linux PC.

So they're stuck making retro tech for a shrinking market.

Just look at "Atari".

[Mayhem]

Amiga stuff is potentially coming. And this C64 related product won't be the only thing. Mind you, it's cheaper than buying all the bits separately, so there's that too.

[KlaxonCow]

So they're stuck making retro tech for a shrinking market.

Yes, the retro tech company is "stuck" making retro tech.

Just as the local corner shop is "stuck" serving their local community, or a plumber is "stuck" doing plumbing, or an indie game dev is "stuck" developing indie games.

But, of course, it's not being "stuck", if that was, you know, the whole bloody point all along.

But I see where the problem is arising, I think. Because it's "the Return of Commodore" and they're picking up this famous brand name, then there's the expectations that come along with that. That to be the Commodore of old, they should be competing with Apple and Dell and Lenovo and all the big names. And the Commodore of old did own MOS technology, so they should be, like Apple, making their own equivalent of the "M" series chips and developing their own "Commodore" ecosystem... and... and...

But, nah, that's not really what's going on here. This is a "community project for community people".

The "Commodore 64 Ultimate" is just one of Gideon's main boards (Gideon is the developer of the Ultimate cartridges and motherboards) pre-assembled inside a C64 case. Both these things existed before this. You could buy an Ultimate 64 motherboard and a C64 case, then put it together yourself.

But Gideon himself has spoken - https://www.reddit.com/r/c64/comments/1 ... modore_64/ - and the gist of it is that he was making these motherboards and cartridges on his own. In small batches. A little hobby business selling retro tech.

And he's got on board with Commodore, because now there's other people. They can do this at a bigger scale. Commodore is getting publicity - there are articles about "the return of Commodore" and these products on Tom's Hardware and IGN and so forth. With a team - a company - behind it, they can now offer pre-assembled systems. Not just the bits of a "DIY" kit to make your own "new" C64, but it's a pre-assembled system.

And they've already sold around 1,200 "basic beige" C64s, 884 of the fancy "Founder's edition" and over 500 of the "Starlight" RGB version. So that's over 2,500 pre-orders at the time of writing.

Which is 10% of the maximum first batch (10K of the basic beige and 10K of the starlight, while the founder's is limited to 6400). If they sell this much ten more times, then they'll sell out the first batch.

This, to me, seems like a "community" business. Putting these retro tech products - which pre-existed and, therefore, are known to sell on their own, by the way - under the official "Commodore" badge. Bringing different "Commodore" projects under the official badge and actually making a retro tech business out of these "community" projects.

[KlaxonCow]

Mind you, it's cheaper than buying all the bits separately, so there's that too.

Indeed, I very much noticed that.

Because, personally, I'd rather have one in the Amiga-like C64C case than the original breadbin. I might have had a breadbin myself, but my mate had a C64C back in the day and I always preferred his case. My nostalgia is listening to Queen and Jeff Wayne's "War of the Worlds", as we played "Lords of Chaos" on his sleek C64C.

But, like, yeah, if I grabbed a C64C case and an Ultimate 64 motherboard to "DIY" what I want, I would be paying more.

€260 for the Ultimate + €60 for the C64C case = €320 ~=£280. Which is more than the £222.29 of grabbing the pre-assembled "basic beige".

Hindsight's 20/20 vision, of course. But the RGB "Starlight" is the worst selling so far - over 1,200 basic beige, over 850 of the fancy "founder's" edition, while the "starlight" with its fancy translucent RGB is only just over 500 units, at time of writing - and I think he's miscalculated that retro gamers care about fancy RGB lights. And I reckon if it'd had been the "basic beige" and a C64C case as options, he would have shifted more and without the no doubt expensive complication of RGB lights and a translucent keyboard.

Modern gamers like the RGB "bling" but I don't think that retro gamers care too much. I mean, the old 8-bits were perfectly bland to look at and we were happy.

But, yeah, I noticed the price difference. Because it's putting me in a "do I pay more to get the C64C case I want DIY-style, or do I just grab a classic breadbin?" position here.

Hmm. Decisions, decisions.

(I want to get back to doing some C64 coding. I know. VICE is just fine for this, and that's what I'd develop on, most likely. But it'd be cool to run my game on C64 hardware. Doesn't have to be original hardware, per se, because if it works on the Ultimate 64, there's a good chance that it is "original hardware compatible".)

[KlaxonCow]

Just checking in on how it's going, and they've shifted 6,000 of the 26,400 units in this first batch. Which is about 22% - more than a fifth, just shy of a quarter.

The "basic beige" is the favourite, with over 3,000 of these ordered. Then, interestingly, the more expensive "gold edition" has shifted over 1,600 units, compared to the translucent RGB "starlight" model at almost 1,200.

There's a few months to go until these actually ship out to people, so if these rates continue (though they may not, as maybe all those interested have already ordered) then it should reach 50% of that first batch - to double what's already happened in less time than is left to go - by that shipping date.

I do hope, though, that these numbers - 10K of both "basic beige" and "starlight", 6400 of the "gold edition" - aren't required to be sold out before then, as these demand estimates are higher than what's panning out. Not stupidly so, as almost shifting a quarter of them already, with a couple of months of ordering still to go ain't bad. But maybe it should have been 5K of each of the two normal models and I guess the 6,400 of the "gold edition" was obliged by the need to get "64" in there somewhere. Halving these numbers, though, I would reckon could have resulted in a sell out / near sell out by the date.

That said, I ain't put my order in for a "basic beige" yet, as I'm still contemplating it all. But I probably will eventually pull the trigger and get one.