The Return of Commodore?

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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by Mayhem »

No, Christian had already stated that all units ordered would be delivered regardless of sales, but there is now enough money from the third party investors and pre-sales to complete the full purchase of the company proposed by the end of the month. So very much full steam ahead.
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by KlaxonCow »

Excellent stuff. Glad to hear it.

Yeah, the concern was just because I hope this all goes well and was just worried that there wasn't any dependence on needing to shift all the units to succeed. But if it's already in the bag, and orders were already going to be guaranteed either way, that's awesome.

(Well, basically, you know how some well-meaning "community" projects and kickstarters often go, and I didn't want to see this one ending up on that large pile of broken dreams with the rest of them. But if, essentially, Commodore is now a thing - barring the paperwork - and there's more projects to come on the coat tails of this one working out well, it's smiles all round.)
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by Barney »

I was leaning towards a beige, but decided not to since the updated Spectrum Next will have a C64 core now, and so I've backed an updated board for my older model.
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by KlaxonCow »

I saw that.



It is tempting because this one is not just offering you a retro gaming experience, but also goes beyond that to new capabilities and games. It seems more like the C65, in that it's not just the original machine, but it is - as the name itself suggests - the "next step" of where things could have gone.
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by KlaxonCow »

And - if Peri Fractic or Gideon is listening - the big thing tempting me with the Spectrum Next is that they published their tech specs. Looking at the Ultimate 64 board and these new computers, I can't find out some basic details. Like, is it possible to run it faster than 1MHz? It has more RAM - is that accessible to the 6510? Can this baby be taken beyond the stock C64 specs - are there any enhancements? - or is this just a "faithful recreation" thing only?

I know that the Spectrum Next can be taken beyond the Spectrum specs. I know the C65 has more capability than the C64 out of the box. But, with the Ultimate stuff, I know it (hardware) emulates the C64, but is that all it can do?

And a bigger point than whether it can or can't go beyond C64 specs... why can't I find that out on the Commodore or Ultimate websites?

You're selling retro hardware to techy people. Don't be shy about the specs.

Indeed, one of the major, major selling points for the original C64 was that amazing "User Manual". Documentation is crucial.

I'm a coder today because of that "C64 User Manual" and the Usborne computer books. Yes, you can look at the C64 and think it was the machine. But, nah, it was the documentation that actually "made a generation who could code". Without the books, it would have been a games console - and the games wouldn't have been as good, because the age of "the bedroom coder" made it all possible. And it was the documentation, not the machine, that's primarily responsible.

Because if the C64 never existed - but the quality of documentation was as high - then we'd have had our "revolution" on the Spectrum and BBC Micro instead.

Same mistake I felt Raspberry Pi made, when they made little computers for kids to learn coding. Sure, you need the machine. But you need the documentation more.

It was meant for kids to learn to code, but it mostly gets bought by adults doing "retro" and "tinkering" stuff. I don't think the specs or the price are any problem - because basic Pis are "throw away" cheap and they've got plenty of bloody power compared to anything from the 20th century and then some.

I think the real problem is that there's no Usborne "How to Write Adventure Games" book, with the imagination-capturing illustrations of the Silvanian mountains, and goblins and dragons. With little cartoon robots in the margins, telling you how arrays work.

THAT is what we really need.

Of course, these days, it wouldn't be a "treeware" book of type-in listings. This would be a website, so you could read it on your phone or tablet, and then you'd just download source code to put on your Pi, rather than the perils of "type-in listings".

But you need the cartoon robots in the margins, explaining how memory works. That's the true "magic sauce" that created a generation who could code. Obviously, if you think about it. Because, yes, you need the hardware to code on. But the thing actually making you "a generation who could code" was the documentation, telling you how to program - spawning a million "bedroom coders" and that's actually why these platforms were alive with games, and people pushing the hardware, and pushing games design.

Even if you never read the C64 User Manual and 6510 spec sheets, Tony Crowther did. Jeff did. Rob Hubbard did - because the actual brilliance of Hubbard is that he was a good coder, as well as a good musician.

It's the same old problem. Atari releases an amazing box - full of amazing hardware - but if no-one knows what the fuck to do with all these co-processors, then the games are all shit. Except Yak's Tempest 2000 because he actually learnt how the machine works.

We see it all the time. Some company releases amazing hardware... but where's the software? There isn't any. So no-one buys it and it drops dead.

It's often said that the C64 was one of the last machines where one person could understand and memorise every single bit and byte of the entire hardware. Yeah, true... but only if someone somewhere documents the memory map, provides the list of hardware registers, etc..

Understand that "a generation who could code" needs something to have taught them how to code. Understand that "a machine where one person can understand every last byte of the machine" needs someone to have documented what every last byte and register in the machine was in the first place.

The real "magic sauce" was education. The true bit of genius was the humble "C64 User's Manual" and how much that book went massively above and beyond its "this is how you plug in your computer and turn it on" to teach you how to code balloon sprites and gunshot sound effects. It really didn't remotely have to go that far - and, frankly, nothing before or since has ever followed suit - but that's where the magic really lies.

The hardware is just a box under the TV - an expensive paperweight - until people know how to code it and release all their "bedroom coder" games to a market craving it.

Did you see early C64 games? Commodore's International Soccer was quite good. But there really was nothing particularly special about the machine, until the legions of "bedroom coders" flooding the market with games that kept trying to push things farther than ever before. Trying to truly master every last byte of the machine.

That's really why we love the C64. Commodore, the company, were a bit shit. That's why they ultimately bankrupted themselves. And released duds all the time, like the "business" focused C128 - when that really should have been the "C64 v2" gaming machine - and Plus/4 and C16. But someone somewhere at Commodore wrote that User Manual (and its accompanying "C64 programmer's reference" for when you really wanted to learn to code), and they were the true genius. Because I'm sure no-one told them to write that much and go into that much detail, but they did anyway. And that's, to my mind, what really made all the difference.

Education, education, education. Because knowledge is power. Document EVERYTHING.
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by zip accident »

KlaxonCow wrote:And - if Peri Fractic or Gideon is listening - the big thing tempting me with the Spectrum Next is that they published their tech specs. Looking at the Ultimate 64 board and these new computers, I can't find out some basic details. Like, is it possible to run it faster than 1MHz? It has more RAM - is that accessible to the 6510? Can this baby be taken beyond the stock C64 specs - are there any enhancements? - or is this just a "faithful recreation" thing only?

I know that the Spectrum Next can be taken beyond the Spectrum specs. I know the C65 has more capability than the C64 out of the box. But, with the Ultimate stuff, I know it (hardware) emulates the C64, but is that all it can do?

And a bigger point than whether it can or can't go beyond C64 specs... why can't I find that out on the Commodore or Ultimate websites?

You're selling retro hardware to techy people. Don't be shy about the specs.

Indeed, one of the major, major selling points for the original C64 was that amazing "User Manual". Documentation is crucial.

I'm a coder today because of that "C64 User Manual" and the Usborne computer books. Yes, you can look at the C64 and think it was the machine. But, nah, it was the documentation that actually "made a generation who could code". Without the books, it would have been a games console - and the games wouldn't have been as good, because the age of "the bedroom coder" made it all possible. And it was the documentation, not the machine, that's primarily responsible.

Because if the C64 never existed - but the quality of documentation was as high - then we'd have had our "revolution" on the Spectrum and BBC Micro instead.

Same mistake I felt Raspberry Pi made, when they made little computers for kids to learn coding. Sure, you need the machine. But you need the documentation more.

It was meant for kids to learn to code, but it mostly gets bought by adults doing "retro" and "tinkering" stuff. I don't think the specs or the price are any problem - because basic Pis are "throw away" cheap and they've got plenty of bloody power compared to anything from the 20th century and then some.

I think the real problem is that there's no Usborne "How to Write Adventure Games" book, with the imagination-capturing illustrations of the Silvanian mountains, and goblins and dragons. With little cartoon robots in the margins, telling you how arrays work.

THAT is what we really need.

Of course, these days, it wouldn't be a "treeware" book of type-in listings. This would be a website, so you could read it on your phone or tablet, and then you'd just download source code to put on your Pi, rather than the perils of "type-in listings".

But you need the cartoon robots in the margins, explaining how memory works. That's the true "magic sauce" that created a generation who could code. Obviously, if you think about it. Because, yes, you need the hardware to code on. But the thing actually making you "a generation who could code" was the documentation, telling you how to program - spawning a million "bedroom coders" and that's actually why these platforms were alive with games, and people pushing the hardware, and pushing games design.

Even if you never read the C64 User Manual and 6510 spec sheets, Tony Crowther did. Jeff did. Rob Hubbard did - because the actual brilliance of Hubbard is that he was a good coder, as well as a good musician.

It's the same old problem. Atari releases an amazing box - full of amazing hardware - but if no-one knows what the fuck to do with all these co-processors, then the games are all shit. Except Yak's Tempest 2000 because he actually learnt how the machine works.

We see it all the time. Some company releases amazing hardware... but where's the software? There isn't any. So no-one buys it and it drops dead.

It's often said that the C64 was one of the last machines where one person could understand and memorise every single bit and byte of the entire hardware. Yeah, true... but only if someone somewhere documents the memory map, provides the list of hardware registers, etc..

Understand that "a generation who could code" needs something to have taught them how to code. Understand that "a machine where one person can understand every last byte of the machine" needs someone to have documented what every last byte and register in the machine was in the first place.

The real "magic sauce" was education. The true bit of genius was the humble "C64 User's Manual" and how much that book went massively above and beyond its "this is how you plug in your computer and turn it on" to teach you how to code balloon sprites and gunshot sound effects. It really didn't remotely have to go that far - and, frankly, nothing before or since has ever followed suit - but that's where the magic really lies.

The hardware is just a box under the TV - an expensive paperweight - until people know how to code it and release all their "bedroom coder" games to a market craving it.

Did you see early C64 games? Commodore's International Soccer was quite good. But there really was nothing particularly special about the machine, until the legions of "bedroom coders" flooding the market with games that kept trying to push things farther than ever before. Trying to truly master every last byte of the machine.

That's really why we love the C64. Commodore, the company, were a bit shit. That's why they ultimately bankrupted themselves. And released duds all the time, like the "business" focused C128 - when that really should have been the "C64 v2" gaming machine - and Plus/4 and C16. But someone somewhere at Commodore wrote that User Manual (and its accompanying "C64 programmer's reference" for when you really wanted to learn to code), and they were the true genius. Because I'm sure no-one told them to write that much and go into that much detail, but they did anyway. And that's, to my mind, what really made all the difference.

Education, education, education. Because knowledge is power. Document EVERYTHING.
You could even be right.

The C64 and the Spectrum weren't it for me. For me it was the ST (e, not that that was much different to the others), could have been the Amiga but that cost £30? £50? more, and I was skint.

What's needed is a simple programming language, with no bugs, and very few commands, so you can get your head around all of it. I think only one loop construct, some way to plot one pixel at x and y coordinates, and not much else.

The pi has loads of programming languages and they are all "you can do this, and this, and this, and this" and it's all too much.
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by grue »

I'm still not convinced that there is a market for all those machines apart from the nostalgia crowd (which I'm also part of of course).

When I sit in front of my Amiga, there is not Internet to distract me, it's just the one task I'm on to. Games, programming, fiddling with the OS, etc.
It takes me back to simpler times that I lived in and that soothes me for a while until I have to get back to the grind.

How will this satisfy anyone that hasn't lived it in its own time is beyond me.
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by KlaxonCow »

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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by KlaxonCow »

The 6502 processor is 50 years old. Happy Birthday.

https://hackaday.com/2025/08/04/happy-birthday-6502/
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by zip accident »

KlaxonCow wrote:The 6502 processor is 50 years old. Happy Birthday.

https://hackaday.com/2025/08/04/happy-birthday-6502/
Was there ever a 32 bit 6502?

I mean, 8080 -> 8086,

Z80 -> z8000.

6800 -> ?6809? -> 68000

6502 -> ?

Was there anything, and if there was, why did it fail?
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by venusian »

I don't think there was ever a 32-bit derivative but there was the WDC 65C816 which was a 16 bit extension and it failed as it was only used in the SNES and the Apple IIGS which nobody has ever heard of.

Also, I think the Z8000 was a completely different beast to the Z80. There were Z80 follow-ons, in the form of the Z180, Z280 and Z380, but the Z8000 and Z80000 were designed on a blank canvas. Actually on a blank canvas: IIRC, the Z8000 was about the last major CPU designed gate-by-gate rather than in a HLD language (or something like that; googling these things takes the fun out of it).
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by KlaxonCow »

Looking online, WDC did design a 32-bit 65C832, as a successor to the 16-bit 65C816:
https://downloads.reactivemicro.com/Ele ... asheet.pdf

But it was never mass-produced in anger. Because, by then, what was the point? You had the 16-bit / 32-bit 68K (The "ST" in "Atari ST" stood for "16-bit / 32-bit", by the way, as the chip was 32-bit internally, but 16-bit externally) and you had ARM. While WDC's design, you'll notice, has "832" in it - 32-bit internal, but still 8-bit external for compatibility.

WDC designed it, but they never released it, as it was just a different market by that point and they must have reckoned that it wouldn't sell enough to justify actually manufacturing it.
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by grue »

Things will sour quite quickly...

https://commodore.inc/press-release-of-23-july-2025/
Good morning, everyone,

in recent days, there has been a lot of talk, perhaps too much, about the “reborn” Commodore brand. Some statements, made public and, in our opinion, inappropriate, have only served to create total confusion within the community, fuel controversy and call into question the work of those who, for over seven years now, have been legitimately using the brand in compliance with both current laws and market rules.

It is therefore believed that the time has come to intervene clearly, firmly and with documents in hand, in order to re-establish what represents the only objective truth of the facts, with the aim of protecting the name and activity of the company that I co-founded and represent (i.e. Commodore Industries S.r.l.) and, no less importantly, to protect the reputation of a team that now consists of more than 150 people, including employees, professionals and external collaborators, as well as the real and tangible value of the brand, built daily with great commitment and sacrifice.

The company ‘Commodore Industries S.r.l.’, through the undersigned administrator, is the legitimate owner of the trademark ‘C= Flag COMMODORE’, as well as the trademarks ‘COMMODORE ENGINEERING’, ‘COMMODORE SINAPSY’, ‘COMMODORE ACADEMY’ and ‘COMMODORE DIGITAL’, which were further developed during the course of the company’s activities, both nationally (Italy) and at European level. For the sake of completeness, it should be noted that, as of the date of publication of this press release, all the registrations mentioned have already been legally validated and certified by the competent bodies/authorities (UIBM for Italy and EUIPO for Europe), with the possibility for Commodore Industries S.r.l., where requested and justified, to provide proof of continuous use of the same over the last seven years. Finally, it should be noted that the process of the above-mentioned registrations was completed without any opposition from third parties, at least on legal grounds, and that no contrary measure has ever been issued that could prevent their use.

The above statement can be easily verified by third parties and the community, as national, European and international trademark databases are in the public domain.

Mr. Christian Simpson (alias ‘Peri Fractic’) recently made statements on his YouTube channel, at different times, which were picked up by numerous media outlets and various newspapers, aimed at undermining our position, claiming to have ‘bought Commodore’ and describing our use of the trademark as ‘illegitimate’.

None of the initiatives launched in the United States give Mr Simpson the right and/or power to cancel or revoke our legitimate rights to the above trademarks.

Such claims are not only legally unfounded, but also compromise the truth and unjustifiably discredit a business project that has invested time, resources and expertise in relaunching the Commodore brand in a modern and technologically advanced way.

Commodore Industries S.r.l. has decided not to produce retro computers (even though this could have been a nostalgic moment that many would have appreciated) purely for commercial and marketing reasons, and not, as many may mistakenly think, to spite the community that has used and loved Commodore products since childhood, just like myself and the other co-founders of our company. Instead, the business has deliberately, and in our opinion rightly, focused on the development of innovative software and hardware, in line with the brand’s original vision.

It is precisely because we care about the community that this press release has become necessary.

We reject, and will continue to firmly oppose, any attempt at delegitimization, intimidation or unfounded claims aimed at elevating the position of certain individuals through that powerful tool known as “disinformation”.

Commodore Industries S.r.l. has always been willing to collaborate with anyone who truly wants to enhance and promote the brand and what it has represented for all of us in the community. However, where necessary, we will be ready to protect our rights, before any authority, on the strength of the legal and substantive grounds that have been explained in detail in this press release.

Our goal remains the same: to continue to create real value for the brand and for the entire Commodore ecosystem. For this reason, we are ready to dialogue and collaborate with anyone who demonstrates, through their actions, a constructive spirit and respect for both the rules and the community.

#WeAreCommodore

Luigi Simonetti

(President of Commodore Industries S.r.l.)
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by skab »

Somehow I can't stand Perifractic, I follow a shit-ton of tech and retro channels, and his was the only one I unsubscribed, ever. I always considered him a phony jump-on-the-bandwagon poser guy. If this develops into an Amiga-style-Cloanto-vs.-Hyperion saga, I guess that checks out then. No thanks...
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Re: The Return of Commodore?

Post by KlaxonCow »

I don't mind the guy and have enjoyed his videos.

But he does have a tendency towards ADHD editing that you have trouble concentrating on, and a hundred thoughts a second racing through his head - so you get weird things like, in the middle of the announcement that they've acquired Commodore, that they're the "detox brand" against "toxic tech and social media".

Umm, okay, sure. But where the hell did that just suddenly come from?

Can we just concentrate on the Commodore acquisition announcement here, and not start adding in a million other unrelated threads about AI stealing our jobs and Windows being spyware and your nostalgia for being 10 years old and issues around social media and how Commodore is going to save us all from "toxic tech" (which I'm not even sure I fully understand because it's just some blink-and-you'll-miss-it throwaway remark in the middle of nowhere) and how he was in Star Wars and how he owns one of the KITTs from Knight Rider and here's my dog making a bad pun in a thought bubble and... and... and...

Like, bloody hell, can we just stick to one topic at a time, please? He whizzes through a hundred thoughts a second and, damn, it's hard to keep up.

And I really don't understand the "toxic tech" and "social media is evil" stuff, when he's, like, promoting his things on social media to people who're currently using PCs running Windows in the majority. So, surely, it can't be all bad or you wouldn't be using this medium in the first place? He very possibly has a coherent position on this, but I simply can't tell, because it's just an alliteration - "toxic tech" - in the midst of a hundred other things, so I'm not even sure I know what he's even getting at.

It's all a bit too much at times. Slow down. Make each point one at a time. Bring us along on that crazy rollercoaster ride that are your thoughts and don't just whizz off in a million directions that I'm getting mental whiplash here.
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