Politics Thread!

[zip accident]

I can't see it as an XOR situation with rich elites and immigrants being problems. it seems to me both are problems. I don't understand how a country this size can potentially function as a country with 400 million people (number pulled out of thin air for sure).

We are a rich elite. The boat people are a rich elite.

Billionaires are an elite of an elite of an elite of an elite...

On the main road in my area, it feels to me as if most of the conversations are not in english. If people are speaking english, it seems to me it's 50:50 they are black.

I don't mind black people.

I dislike violent or threatening people.

[Mat]

A little context on that post above. I won't say directly who I work for, and I think I've said before anyway, but I'm exposed to this stuff on a daily basis. No matter how much you try to ignore it, it ends up eating away at your hope.

I work here through necessity; I was laid off over the pandemic, and while I freelanced for a while, the offer I got here was really good, and incredibly ironically, it's the most diverse workplace I've worked in. My line manager, while he has his problems, is incredibly supportive and protective of his staff.
Lets just say that it's in the "News" sector in the "UK."

When the offer came through, I really had to bypass my personal ethics, suck it up and take the work. This was after 40 years of being taught that the owner is one of the most evil people on the planet.
My freelancing career was building up momentum, sure, but I've been PAYE my entire life, and prefer the certainty of knowing I don't have to be continuously chasing the next job. And you don't have many options in your late 40s / early 50s.

From an academic perspective (I did a BTEC in Media Studies), it's a fascinating place to work.
For a start, it's a former powerhouse that is in obvious decline as new media outpaces and outclasses it; yet that doesn't make it any less dangerous.

It also becomes apparent when working here that the right-wing stance of the company is solely fashioned to engender outrage, appeal to the lowest common denominator and sell as much advertising space as possible. The owner really is concerned first and foremost with creating a political environment that will favour him and his family financially.

And to that end, they sail as close to the wind as possible when it comes to truth versus lie.

For official news products, they are still somewhat governed by laws about what can be said. For the outright lies, they save that for the "entertainment" products, that just so happen to look identical to news ones.
But even so, they also control what makes it into their news stories, which again can end up tilting the consumption experience in the direction they like through simple ommission of critical facts.

And this is all in contrast to the, as noted, surprisingly diverse workforce.

And yet even there, we have gone through several rounds of redundancies since I've been here, especially following a rather high profile and expensive court case a couple of years ago.
And who is hit first in these redundancies?
Could it be the executives who define the direction the company takes? Could it possibly be them that take responsibility for what is ultimately their failure?

Fucking lol, don't be stupid.

It's always, always the people responsible for making the content the company is dependent on; journalists, producers, gallery staff, video editors; and a couple of weeks later you see the same faces back in the office as freelancers (on a higher rate), as the company suddenly realises it doesn't actually have the people it needs to make the content it sells.

And all the while, in the broadcast engineering department, we're being pushed to implement automation technologies to cut down on staffing costs.

I mean, I can understand the allure:
If you can automate your studio galleries so much that you can now rely on one relatively junior member of staff to push a button instead of 5-6 professionals on between £50K-£90K, it's economically compelling (nevermind that the automation technologies you are implementing cost approximately the same as those staff in total, because you're relying on subscription services instead of building your own.)

But it's so fucking short-sighted, as all corporate decisions in all industries seem to be these days. If you replace everyone with automation and AI, who is going to be able to earn the money to spend on the products you're making or advertising?

And so we end up in the situation where the entire c-suite of a leading UK news organisation haven't suffered a single loss during multiple rounds of redundancies, despite very obviously being the cause of the declining relevance (and revenue) of the organisation.

For example, the most famous red top in the country?
Hasn't made a profit for years now.

From what I understand, about the only profitable department these days is the sports offering.

All of this is to illustrate that the world's CEOs are most certainly not the geniuses that they claim to be, but are sold snake oil as easily as some senile 94 year old.
Dangle a product featuring cloud, AI and automation in front of them, and they'll bite your arm off at the elbow.

And when they lose biblical amounts of money, they fall back on the same scapegoats to direct attention away from them; usually immigrants, as they have no means of fighting back.

Edit:
One other point I meant to get across, but forgot to: this organisation is still noticeably feared by those in government, and successive prime ministers have gone out of their way to placate the beast, as despite being in decline, it is still seen as having the power to sway the voting populace.

[KlaxonCow]

I don't understand how a country this size can potentially function as a country with 400 million people (number pulled out of thin air for sure).

Not pulled from "thin air", but squarely out of your arse, mate.

400 million people is more than the population of the United States of America (~300 million people) and the United Kingdom (~70 million people), and you'd have to add the population of Spain (~30 million people) to reach this completely absurd and unreal figure that you've completely pulled out of your arse from nowhere.

You've just invented a beyond silly figure that's not related to anything in reality whatsoever.

So I don't really know what to say, other than, yes, I guess if the entire population of the United States and of Spain all came over in small boats - a few dozen at a time every day - then, in 37,000 years, we'd have the problem of a population of 400 million people to deal with.

Because, you know, basic maths. Assuming that they're showing up in small boats - 24 people at a time - then it would take over 37,000 years for all 400 million people to come across. I mean, if you want to up the rate tenfold to 240 people a day, then it'd still take 3,700 years for your projected 400 million population to transpire.

Please note that Early Ancient Greek civilisation and the Acropolis, where the Parthenon is, would be closer in time to us in the present day, than when this mythical "invasion" of 400 million people - one small boat at a time - would supposedly transpire.

So I'll give you credit for really thinking ahead at the problems we might face in the far distant future.

But it really is not an immediate problem. Not least because, of course, that just assumes only an inward migration but, in fact, we probably lose, most days, an equal number of people that, actually, even if they did keep coming - 240 people every day for the next 3,700 years - then we would never actually reach 400 million people.

But this is the essence of what I'm talking about. The "small boats" gives Farage and the Red Tops a visual "bogeyman" to threaten people with. But it's utterly, utterly, utterly insignificant. It's vastly too small to make any difference to anything whatsoever.

I can't see it as an XOR situation with rich elites and immigrants being problems. it seems to me both are problems.
[...]
We are a rich elite. The boat people are a rich elite.

Billionaires are an elite of an elite of an elite of an elite...

Seriously? You're going to pull some "relative poverty" bullshit on me, are you?

Yeah, sure. Even the poorest people on this planet today still have a better quality of life - technology, medical treatment, the build quality of their homes, etc. - than even the God Kings of Ancient Egypt did, thousands of years ago. True enough.

But I know you're not an idiot, and that - hand on heart, honest to goodness - you don't really believe what you're saying here. Your brain is just struggling to hold onto the prejudice you've already accepted, in the face of me quite bluntly pointing out that it makes no fucking logical sense whatsoever.

And you know it makes no fucking sense. You know how to do arithmetic, right? You too can divide 400 million by 240 people every day - so ten "small boats" packed with a couple dozen migrants - and then realise that the invented figure you just made up would only happen in 3,700 years' time.

And maybe you want some backing to the claim that migration benefits the UK, rather than drains it, so here's Gemini AI working it out for us:

The net financial "profit" from migration to the UK is a complex calculation, but analyses by the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) suggest that migrants contribute to public finances through taxes and fees (an average of ~£4.1 billion annually from visa and health surcharges), alongside general taxation, resulting in a positive net fiscal contribution over their lifetime, with some estimates showing a migrant can contribute over £340,000 in public finances if they work until retirement.

I actually suggested £2 billion "profit" but it seems my figures are out of date, as it now brings in more than twice that much.

I can't see it as an XOR situation with rich elites and immigrants being problems. it seems to me both are problems.

You're just being deliberately obtuse, I feel. As I was very clear about the difference in what I said.

We were talking about a lack of jobs and the economic woes we all currently face in the current economic climate, and how well our public services are coping.

And the basic point really was quite simple.

The rich elites - the multi-billion corporations - have direct control over jobs. If there are not enough jobs, then it's because they're not offering them. And we know they're not offering them, as they're busy replacing human beings with AI and robotic automation at every possible point to maximise their profits.

Whereas, an asylum seeker getting off a small boat cannot legally seek employment at all and are compelled to be a burden on the benefits system, until their claim has been processed (80-90% of asylum claims, by the way, are held up as legitimate). So, for 6 months to several years, depending on the slow speed of their asylum claim getting processed, they cannot legally be having any affect on jobs whatsoever (or, hey, maybe they're doing black market jobs on the side when no-one's looking, but then they're not competing with any law-abiding jobs that you're applying for, right?).

As I asked, who has the greater economic influence and impact here? The people who literally create all the jobs, not creating enough jobs, and letting thousands of workers go to be replaced by automation for increased profits. Or two dozen brown people on a small boat, who legally cannot threaten the job market until they've had their asylum claim upheld - probably in many years' time, at the rate these things are processed.

The answer is blatantly self-evident. But your brain is struggling to post-rationalise the racist "bogeyman" that Farage and the Red Tops have put in your head, because - at some level - you've bought into their lie. And the human mind is brilliant at post-rationalisation.

Like, what I'm saying is really bloody obviously true. You can look it up and satisfy yourself that I'm giving perfectly good numbers here.

And Mat is giving you a "straight from the horse's mouth" account of how this tabloid shit is KNOWN LIES. Like, not opinion. Mat's at the coal face and he's telling us exactly what's actually happening there.

I get it. You were lied to and, to some extent, though nowhere near as bad as some of these people spray-painting St.George flags everywhere, you believed what you were being told. But it's bollocks. The people saying it know that it's bollocks. But racism helps sell newspapers and win votes - to the extent that Prime Minister Nigel Farage really is a terrifyingly real prospect at the next election.

And, be clear, Farage doesn't actually give a shit about the boat people either. But it's his ticket to win the office and then, as Prime Minister, he's going to - as he's promised to do - shut down the NHS and then sell it off to his American friends, that we operate under the same broken health insurance schemes as is absolutely broken in America.

It's a stated Reform policy. Farage - the ex-commodities-trader in the City of London - is riding racism to get power to sell off the NHS and other national assets to great profit, to his American friends, like Donald Trump.

[zip accident]

I don't understand how a country this size can potentially function as a country with 400 million people (number pulled out of thin air for sure).

Not pulled from "thin air", but squarely out of your arse, mate.

There's a difference?

It was a figure to suggest that unlimited immigration is not sensible. I wasn't anticipating that many people coming in small boats, but if planes, ships and trains all went for it, I don't think the number is utterly impossible, the Dunkirk evacuation took a few days and that was about 300,000?

But this is the essence of what I'm talking about. The "small boats" gives Farage and the Red Tops a visual "bogeyman" to threaten people with. But it's utterly, utterly, utterly insignificant. It's vastly too small to make any difference to anything whatsoever.

I can't see it as an XOR situation with rich elites and immigrants being problems. it seems to me both are problems.
[...]
We are a rich elite. The boat people are a rich elite.

Billionaires are an elite of an elite of an elite of an elite...

Seriously? You're going to pull some "relative poverty" bullshit on me, are you?

The boat people allegedly pay the people smugglers thousands of dollars for their places in the boats, and even so, most of them are murdered before they get to the boats, so yes the ones who make it this far are an elite. There have to be some boat people, the ones at the start wouldn't pay the smugglers if they all died before they got to the boats.

Yeah, sure. Even the poorest people on this planet today still have a better quality of life - technology, medical treatment, the build quality of their homes, etc. - than even the God Kings of Ancient Egypt did, thousands of years ago. True enough.

I didn't say that, the poor aren't the ones in the boats, and I don't think it's true of the poorest of the worlds current poor.

But I know you're not an idiot, and that - hand on heart, honest to goodness - you don't really believe what you're saying here. Your brain is just struggling to hold onto the prejudice you've already accepted, in the face of me quite bluntly pointing out that it makes no fucking logical sense whatsoever.

You have no clue what I believe, and this is very offensive rubbish. If the immigrants were all coming from the USA, if they were as poor on arrival as the boat people are, I'd still be against them.

I can't see it as an XOR situation with rich elites and immigrants being problems. it seems to me both are problems.

You're just being deliberately obtuse, I feel. As I was very clear about the difference in what I said.

We were talking about a lack of jobs and the economic woes we all currently face in the current economic climate, and how well our public services are coping.

You were. I wasn't.

I am talking about feeling as if it's not home here any more. The billionaires are a part of that. So is the sudden (or whatever) influx of people who prefer to speak something other than english. People who want to be part of ethnically based communities. Who don't want to fit in. I don't care whether they are Ukrainian, Polish or French, if they don't want to speak english, I don't like that. On the other hand I went to France once, and I was doing the point and money thing to buy some food, and when I came out of the shop I thought "hang on, they were speaking english", that was weird.

And the basic point really was quite simple.

The rich elites - the multi-billion corporations - have direct control over jobs. If there are not enough jobs, then it's because they're not offering them. And we know they're not offering them, as they're busy replacing human beings with AI and robotic automation at every possible point to maximise their profits.

Rubbish, they aren't doing the jobs at all, they'd rather pay shareholders dividends than pay for work to be done. I've said before, I'm not at all sure that there are many human shareholders any more, it's all corporations owning corporations with no humans in the loop.

The answer is blatantly self-evident. But your brain is struggling to post-rationalise the racist "bogeyman" that Farage and the Red Tops have put in your head, because - at some level - you've bought into their lie. And the human mind is brilliant at post-rationalisation.

And you're struggling to post rationalise the idea that there can be good without god, when obviously there is neither.

And Mat is giving you a "straight from the horse's mouth" account of how this tabloid shit is KNOWN LIES. Like, not opinion. Mat's at the coal face and he's telling us exactly what's actually happening there.

Mat made a good post, I have nothing to disagree with in his post. You might want to think about that.

I get it. You were lied to and, to some extent, though nowhere near as bad as some of these people spray-painting St.George flags everywhere, you believed what you were being told. But it's bollocks. The people saying it know that it's bollocks. But racism helps sell newspapers and win votes - to the extent that Prime Minister Nigel Farage really is a terrifyingly real prospect at the next election.

And, be clear, Farage doesn't actually give a shit about the boat people either. But it's his ticket to win the office and then, as Prime Minister, he's going to - as he's promised to do - shut down the NHS and then sell it off to his American friends, that we operate under the same broken health insurance schemes as is absolutely broken in America.

It's a stated Reform policy. Farage - the ex-commodities-trader in the City of London - is riding racism to get power to sell off the NHS and other national assets to great profit, to his American friends, like Donald Trump.

Farage I'm not sure about. He says he's not racist, and seems to reject racism in his parties. Which is odd. Selling off the NHS would be very bad.

[KlaxonCow]

It was a figure to suggest that unlimited immigration is not sensible. I wasn't anticipating that many people coming in small boats, but if planes, ships and trains all went for it, I don't think the number is utterly impossible, the Dunkirk evacuation took a few days and that was about 300,000?
[...]

But I know you're not an idiot, and that - hand on heart, honest to goodness - you don't really believe what you're saying here

You have no clue what I believe, and this is very offensive rubbish.

I apologise.

I was crediting you with sufficient intelligence to realise that 400 million people - equivalent to the entire human population of the United States, the United Kingdom and Spain combined and would be the 3rd largest population on planet Earth, after India and China - was an utterly, utterly absurd figure.

I even illustrated this by pointing out that, at 24 people every day, it would take 37,000 years. At 240 every day, 3,700 years. At 2,400 people every day, 370 years. At 24,000 people every single day, 37 years. To give that sense of scale of just how insanely big that number truly is.

Indeed, let us not use invented figures. Going by the BBC's numbers, there have been around 50,000 immigrants, via small boat crossings, in the 403 days since Labour came to power. That's an average of 124 people every day.

So, for 400 million people to arrive at that rate, it would take over 8,800 years.

To be clear, 8800 years into the past, we'd be in the neolithic period before the invention of pottery, and around the transition period of Homo Sapiens moving from a nomadic hunter-gatherer lifestyle to the invention of agriculture. The woolly mammoth had not yet gone extinct. In 6775 BCE, we're still 4,200 years before the construction of the Pyramids at Giza or the sarsen stones of Stonehenge were raised.

I'm trying to give you a sense of how ridiculously long 8800 years is - well before all of recorded history - and that we're, therefore, closer in time to the first agricultural civilisations in the Fertile Crescent of the Middle East, than we are to your imagined "invasion" of the entirety of the populations of the United States, the United Kingdom and Spain all arriving at the White Cliffs of Dover at the current rates of "small boat" crossing.

I was crediting you with having sufficient sense and intelligence to realise, upon being faced with this very basic arithmetic, how beyond absurd your "400 million" figure actually was.

But, no, I apologise. You really are so kow-towed to the casual racism of Farage and the Red Tops, so desperate to post-rationalise your already-decided conclusion, you really can't see how beyond insane the figure of 400 million you suggested was.

I apologise for believing you better than that, as I was clearly completely wrong. If you are doubling down on this, then you truly are a fucking moron, I'm afraid. You've been frightened into a complete irrationality that, apparently, has placed you beyond all reason, where not even very basic arithmetic can save you from your insanity.

"You cannot reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into"
- Jonathan Swift

[tufty]

Farage I'm not sure about. He says he's not racist, and seems to reject racism in his parties.

Haha. Ahahahah. No, really. Hahahah. <pause for breath> Tell us another one.

[KlaxonCow]

And you're struggling to post rationalise the idea that there can be good without god, when obviously there is neither.

I have to pick this one out, because it's very much a "what?!?" when I read it, because I truly have no idea where this "good without god" thing is coming from. That was not remotely my argument in the slightest.

But, well, if you want to go down that route...

Does any kind of good exist in this world? Well, there ain't no god. Therefore, Q.E.D., there is good without god.

Because there never was a god, so if there's any inch of good - no matter how small nor fleeting - in this world, then we have "good without god" right there.

But, yes, in general, you are right that I flatly refuse and deny the in-built "fatalism" of religious thought about "End Times" and other such bollocks, on the strength of the evidence that not an inch of it has ever matched reality and the actual numbers, for even a nanosecond. And the media sells us "doom and gloom", as Mat pointed out, simply as the last "death throes" of dying print empires that once actually mattered. Murdoch will soon be dead, thank goodness.

[zip accident]

And you're struggling to post rationalise the idea that there can be good without god, when obviously there is neither.

I have to pick this one out, because it's very much a "what?!?" when I read it, because I truly have no idea where this "good without god" thing is coming from. That was not remotely my argument in the slightest.

I was pointing out that your "post rationalise" talk is rubbish.

Does any kind of good exist in this world? Well, there ain't no god. Therefore, Q.E.D., there is good without god.

Because there never was a god, so if there's any inch of good - no matter how small nor fleeting - in this world, then we have "good without god" right there.

Whose good? there has never been a good that everybody who ever lived would say was good. The nazis were bad, but in their own opinions they were the good guys.

Murdoch will soon be dead, thank goodness.

Apparently Xi and Putin were caught talking about living forever by transplants:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr70rvrd41ko

Hot mic catches Xi and Putin discussing organ transplants and immortality

If that's on the cards, I expect Murdoch, Trump, Bezos, Musk and Zuckerberg to be lined up to benefit.

[KlaxonCow]

Selling off the NHS would be very bad.

I ask you to simply think about this possibility.



This is Farage's true motivation, to sell off the NHS to American health insurance companies, who will personally reward him handsomely for doing so.

And he knows, whilst the "small boats" gives him a perfect visual for his campaigning, that this isn't really a genuine population or cultural threat, as he is capable of doing the basic arithmetic on this.

And he'll do what the Tories did. Which, as this graph shows, is that they deliberately made non-EU immigration worse, thinking that making promises to fix it would guarantee them the next election:



As you can see, the graph turns when the Tories' new immigration policy was brought in and it occurred after Brexit, so this is 100% a "home grown" UK policy.

Farage will complain about immigration, but if he obtains power then, like the Tories, he will not do a single thing to actually fix it. He may even do as the Tories did, and deliberately stoke the problem to become much worse.

Because why on Earth would he give away the only reason people voted for Reform?

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, will obtain neither Liberty nor Safety."
- Benjamin Franklin

You're making the wrong bargain with the wrong people, and you will not even get what you were promised.

Migration issues will not even be attempted to be solved, and you'll be plunged into poverty, like most Americans, by insane health insurance costs that don't even cover you when it comes time to claim:



#FreeLuigi

[tufty]

I am talking about feeling as if it's not home here any more.

Which is bollocks. Reality doesn't care about your racist feels.

So is the sudden (or whatever) influx of people who prefer to speak something other than english.

It's not sudden, and you know it. And it's not people who "prefer" to speak something other than english, it's people who have something other than english as their mother tongue. This does not imply that they do not want to integrate / are not integrated into the UK's society.

People who want to be part of ethnically based communities.

It's not wanting to be part of ethnically based communities, it's people who feel safe and comfortable in communities with - oh, hang on. I can think of someone who very much wants to live in an ethnically based community. You. You don't want "outsiders". You claim you don't care about black people but somehow it shocks you that half of the people you see speaking english are black. At some point, when someone is parroting extreme right wing, racist talking points, they start looking a whole lot like an extreme right wing racist fuck.

There have always been communities of people who have similar roots. In many cases it's fucking tribal, you enormous tit. Chinatowns everywhere. Irish americans in Boston. Some of them have no choice, the caribbean immigrants to the UK in the '50s were deliberately dumped into the poorest areas where white people didn't want to live.

Who don't want to fit in.

Two people with the same mother tongue speaking to each other, in public, in that mother tongue does not imply that they do not want to fit in. It implies that it is easier for at least one of them to converse in that language. Try doing something somewhat alien to racist fucks. Try putting yourself in their shoes. Imagine that you live in another country, one where you have integrated, where you speak the language well enough to be able to live and work there. Now imagine you're walking down the street with your wife. What language are you going to use when you're talking to her?

It is none of your fucking business what language other people use when speaking to each other. It's none of your fucking business what they are saying to each other. If you think it is, why don't you go up to people and politely ask them to speak english, see how that works out for you.

Christ, you make me cross.

[zip accident]

I am talking about feeling as if it's not home here any more.

Which is bollocks. Reality doesn't care about your racist feels.

Nor does reality care about your anti-racist feels.

So is the sudden (or whatever) influx of people who prefer to speak something other than english.

It's not sudden, and you know it. And it's not people who "prefer" to speak something other than english, it's people who have something other than english as their mother tongue. This does not imply that they do not want to integrate / are not integrated into the UK's society.

People who want to be part of ethnically based communities.

It's not wanting to be part of ethnically based communities, it's people who feel safe and comfortable in communities with - oh, hang on. I can think of someone who very much wants to live in an ethnically based community. You. You don't want "outsiders". You claim you don't care about black people but somehow it shocks you that half of the people you see speaking english are black. At some point, when someone is parroting extreme right wing, racist talking points, they start looking a whole lot like an extreme right wing racist fuck.

There have always been communities of people who have similar roots. In many cases it's fucking tribal, you enormous tit. Chinatowns everywhere. Irish americans in Boston.

Those are also problems in my view. Second generation Italians in the USA who are pure "blood" Italians? to me, that's avoiding integration.

Some of them have no choice, the caribbean immigrants to the UK in the '50s were deliberately dumped into the poorest areas where white people didn't want to live.

That was bad.

Who don't want to fit in.

Two people with the same mother tongue speaking to each other, in public, in that mother tongue does not imply that they do not want to fit in. It implies that it is easier for at least one of them to converse in that language. Try doing something somewhat alien to racist fucks. Try putting yourself in their shoes. Imagine that you live in another country, one where you have integrated, where you speak the language well enough to be able to live and work there. Now imagine you're walking down the street with your wife. What language are you going to use when you're talking to her?

Did they marry before arriving?

It is none of your fucking business what language other people use when speaking to each other. It's none of your fucking business what they are saying to each other. If you think it is, why don't you go up to people and politely ask them to speak english, see how that works out for you.

It's not the one off conversation that gets me, it's the overall ambiance.

Christ, you make me cross.

A Christian Marxist? or a non-Marxist communist with Xtain leanings?

I don't think it's me making you cross at all, unlike some I could point at, I won't try to ascribe your anger to something I know nothing about.

[F-ZeroOne]

Florida has just declared it is going to end all school vaccine mandates.

You win, Judge Mortis.

[gilesgoat]

Just seen this on the BBC site, cannot stop thinking "Is the Addams family ???" ..

Gomez, Fester, Morticia and someone else

[PFVA]

Warning: This is going to be a long rant
The Lisbon Funicular.

This was a disaster waiting to happen.
As a matter of fact the only surprise is that it took so long to happen.

They belong to the city public transportation. A bit over 15 years ago maintenance was contracted out to a private company. We all know the model, employees with lower wages than before. In this case they don't even have long term contracts, they are almost like temporary employees. Maintenance priorly done in 16 hours was now done in 30 minutes. If 16 hours may have been too slow, 30 minutes is for sure too fast.

As it was not enough to reduce maintenance, they extended the hours of operation and increased the frequency. It's a popular way to go from down to the restaurants and bars of Bairro Alto. commuter use them too, people who work up there and use the underground or the train to the suburbs which stations are right at the bottom.

There was several warnings from the drivers that something was wrong and even that they were having difficulties with the brakes. Their union has put out several warnings about the maintenance of the old cable cars and particularly of the 4 funiculars and the St Justa lift. I read one of those meanwhile I was having breakfast at the café in August and I remember thinking that was not a good thing at all. Those are all stopped at moment by order of the mayor.

I'm furious, a kind of, so are lots of people because you can't operate these systems like this without proper maintenance. Those carriages weight 20 tons each. They are connected by a cable. As one comes down the cable helps to pull the other up. They have brakes, including an additional emergency brake and some kind of engines the help to pull it. And everything failed. The car lost control right after starting the tip and came down full force. It derailed on the curve and hit the wall otherwise it would have hit the one at the bottom and probally gone into the avenue down there right next to the train station.
On that morning they had just done one of those 30 minutes maintenances after being alerted once again by the drivers to problems with it.

The entire thing it's just not acceptable.

Sixteen people died. Commuters going back fm work, tourists that were here on vacation. At least 5 are seriously injured There is a 3 years old child with the 2 parents in serious condition at the hospital.

it's wrong just to think just about profit, profit, profit.

[venusian]

It's even on the British new, although mostly because there were British people on it.

That kind of tosh is what politicians mean when they say "efficiency savings" and it is indeed bollocks.