Politics Thread!

Inane baanter or words of wisdom - you decide...
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zip accident
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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by zip accident »

SuperMappy wrote:
Tl/dl (I got maybe a fifth of the way through)

But... Alexander Putin? Vladimir Putin!

Yaxley Lennon and 100,000. That's too many. We can't ignore that and hope that it goes away. I remember skinheads back in the day, there weren't that many and they were a big problem.

Before Brexit, we could deal with EU migrants, because they were like us and we could go there as much as they could come here. Now that's no longer the case, or at least it's not so easy.

We need to deal with unemployment and low wages, and that's going to mean taxing the rich and even the moderately well off much harder.
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Re: Politics Thread!

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zip accident wrote:Critical Race Theory … F1 hybrid.
Jesus fucking wept, man. You really just don't understand it, do you?
Wikipedia wrote:Scholars of CRT say that race is not "biologically grounded and natural"; rather, it is a socially constructed category used to oppress and exploit people of color; and that racism is not an aberration, but a normalized feature of American society.
Also Wikipedia wrote:F1 crosses in animals can be between two inbred lines or between two closely related species or subspecies.
I think we're clear about the difference between "race" and species / subspecies, right? Actually, no, we're probably not.

From [url="https://www.reddit.com/r/evolution/comments/lr67l5/i_dont_understand_the_difference_between_race_and/"]this reddit thread[/url]
question wrote:I don’t understand the difference between race and subspecies of homo sapiens?
Why aren’t white and black people considered separate subspecies of human?
answer wrote:Humanity left Africa less than 70,000 years ago. Adjust your expectations of identifying any sub-species accordingly. A single community of chimpanzees has more variation than humanity (Gagneux et al., 1997), also see Figure 1 for an illustration of the variation. Templeton, 2013 compares humans and chimpanzees and concludes there are chimpanzee sub-species, but not human races. Norton et al. 2019 makes a comparison with dog breeds and comes to the same conclusion. If you want to know what a justification for the validity of a sub-species looks like, here is a report justifying the validity of the Mexican Grey Wolf and Red Wolf sub-species and this is how advanced real taxonomy is. Racists have never written anything as comprehensive as this to justify the validity of human sub-species. Here’s someone at Stanford University who agrees and coincidentally makes exactly the same arguments as me.
[/quote][/quote][/quote]
The answer has links to various papers, follow the link above to get to them.

So. Race != species, and race != subspecies. Race is, in fact, a set of incredibly minor differences between some genetic markers within a population of billions. So I suppose you can only be talking about the "two inbred lines" part. But race is not an "inbred line" either. That implies a very small population, y'know, marrying your cousin. The village I'm in, population 500 or so, had 25 phone book entries with the same surname when we moved in (phone books don't exist any more) and probably 60% of it was made up of 4 surnames. And while there's quite a few jokes about inbreeding, it doesn't actually qualify for "inbred line" status.

Really. Stop reading shit you picked up from fucking ultra-right-wing facebook groups. It's turning your brain to soup.
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Re: Politics Thread!

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tufty wrote:
zip accident wrote:Critical Race Theory … F1 hybrid.
Jesus fucking wept, man. You really just don't understand it, do you?
Nobody fully understands genetics.
Wikipedia wrote:Scholars of CRT say that race is not "biologically grounded and natural"; rather, it is a socially constructed category used to oppress and exploit people of color; and that racism is not an aberration, but a normalized feature of American society.
What's American about Croats versus Serbs?
Also Wikipedia wrote:F1 crosses in animals can be between two inbred lines or between two closely related species or subspecies.
There can be small populations that are locally bred without being inbred to the point of serious harm.

With Mendel's sweet peas, strains could be perfectly healthy, but still produce F1s when crossed.
I think we're clear about the difference between "race" and species / subspecies, right? Actually, no, we're probably not.

As I said, nobody understands natural selection and genetics.
So I suppose you can only be talking about the "two inbred lines" part. But race is not an "inbred line" either. That implies a very small population, y'know, marrying your cousin. The village I'm in, population 500 or so, had 25 phone book entries with the same surname when we moved in (phone books don't exist any more) and probably 60% of it was made up of 4 surnames. And while there's quite a few jokes about inbreeding, it doesn't actually qualify for "inbred line" status.
It probably does qualify for "makes F1 hybrids with other populations". Which is excellent, F1 hybrids are genetic's bonus for outbreeding, and it's a bonus because it's hugely worth doing. Natural Selection favours it to the point of providing a big bonus, all the way from man to plants, and it doesn't do that sort of thing lightly (ignoring the fact that there is no intentionality in natural selection or genetics for the sake of simplicity).

Racists would presumably hate it, because it rewards what they call miscegenation. However, in this they are plain wrong, what they call miscegenation is good and should be called eucegenation. Oh, looks as if my amatuer etymology was wrong, the "mis" isn't from "bad" in this case.
Really. Stop reading shit you picked up from fucking ultra-right-wing facebook groups. It's turning your brain to soup.
Facebook? I don't read reddit either.
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Re: Politics Thread!

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zip accident wrote:
Wikipedia wrote:Scholars of CRT say that race is not "biologically grounded and natural"; rather, it is a socially constructed category used to oppress and exploit people of color; and that racism is not an aberration, but a normalized feature of American society.
What's American about Croats versus Serbs?
Nothing. I was going to ellipsis the "American" bit, but decided not to. Racism certainly seems to be normalised in pretty much all societies, and doesn't require "people of colour" either.

Point is, there is no "race". None whatsoever. It's an absolutely arbitrary cultural decision to segregate due to one or more, arbitrarily chosen and clearly visible, physical differences. Are people with blue eyes a "race"? "That's stupid", you might say, but the Nazis thought blue eyes were a racial marker. What about left handedness? "Stupid", again, but although it wasn't considered "racial", it was often seen as being "wrong" in Xtian societies - it is, after all, the root for the word "sinister". And so on, and so on...

It's all bollocks.
zip accident wrote:we could deal with EU migrants, because they were like us
But we can't deal with the people coming across on small boats because they are not "like us". That's what it comes down to. They're brown. They don't worship the same gods. I know that's not exactly what you were talking about, and I've clipped you out of context, but you get the point.
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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by KlaxonCow »

Shave a gorilla and they have black skin:

Image

Shave a chimp (or, in this case, the chimp had a medical condition that made it hairless) and they have a sort of "tan" olive skin:

Image

As with humans, this skin colouring is caused by melanin. Our fellow primates - including lemurs - all have the melanin genes.

The melanin genes that we all carry, are extremely ancient. They're way older than the shared common ancestor of all primates, from whom all primates inherit these genes.

Modern humans emerged around 300,000 years ago. Melanin genes - through the fossil record - can be traced to being at least 300 million years old.

And that's why black and white and brown and yellow and red human beings can't be different species or subspecies.

We can't be divided along a line that all humans - all primates and heck a lot of the animal kingdom - all shared as a common ancient inheritance.

It doesn't logically make any sense, unless you're contending that the "white race" and "black race" are 300 million years old and have somehow impossibly evolved independently, yet exactly 1:1 mapped each other's evolutionary development gene-by-gene ever since.

We can't be divided by a thing that's far, far, far more ancient than all primates, let alone all hominids, let alone all Homo Sapiens. Or the division would have happened 300 million years ago, and there'd be absolutely no genetic nor evolutionary connection between white and black people of any kind ever since then.

I would appreciate if you could repeat back to me what I've just said, so that I can be sure that you intellectually understand THE COMPLETE LOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITY of there being black and white "species" or "subspecies" or other racial divisions of that kind, and do understand why, as tufty absolutely 100% correctly states, that "race" does not exist in biology and it is NOT a biological term.

Because anyone who studies this subject, in even "interested amateur" depth, is immediately confronted with this logical impossibility. The melanin genes - that makes animals "black" and "white" (and various shades in-between) - are ancient to the tune of at least 300 million years, and therefore if this was a "species" or "subspecies" separate, then the division between "the white race" and "the black race" occurred 300 million years ago. It occurred long before mammals even came into existence. Reptiles and such. Land animals had only been a thing for around 100 million years at that point.

And if the division occurred that long ago, then how could black and white humans be otherwise genetically identical and able to cross-breed?

It doesn't make sense, because it's not true.

Melanin has a big visual impact, because it colours the skin of the animal - by sight, you could hardly not notice it. But, in terms of genes, vastly more genes are involved in determining your unique face, many more involved in determining your biological sex (and I don't think you'd propose that "women are a different species", other than maybe in a poetic sense) or the epigenetics that determines your fingerprints (because let us remember that our genes are far from the be-all and end-all that define us anyway).

Speaking of epigenetics, on my left forearm, I've got a couple of freckles. Whilst I'm white, I have the melanin genes. We all do. As mentioned, they are an ancient genetic legacy shared by all primates and vast tracts of the Animal Kingdom.

We all have the genes within us to produce melanin, but these genes are "turned off" in white people.

Except not within those freckles I've got; This is epigenetics. Whilst my DNA "blueprint" says that my melanin genes should be turned off, making me a white person, some skin cells within my left forearm didn't get the memo - didn't follow the DNA instructions correctly - and that's what those freckles are. A couple of spots on my skin, where the cells actually turned on the melanin production. Within that freckle, I am black.

And, well, cells reproduce. So the "black" skin cells in my forearm have copied themselves - complete with the melanin production genes turned on - ever since. All the cells in your body (minus a few in the brain stem) replenish themselves, but they do so by copying themselves. Therefore, this epigenetic "copying mistake" will be with me, almost certainly, until the day I die.

It's also not a static trait either. Go on your hols to sunny Spain and lie on the beach, catching a tan - or if you have less time and money, perhaps go to a tanning salon to use one of their tanning beds.

You've got a tan because, in response to the UVB radiation, your body actually turns on the melanin production. Because that's melanin is - natural "sunblock". The body's built-in "sun cream".

You don't want too much UVB radiation from the Sun. Because it causes damage and depletes folic acid. If you've ever been involved in a pregnancy, then you know that folic acid is important during pregnancy - women are prescribed folic acid, if they have a deficiency. Because it's vital to the whole process.

But, equally, your mother was right. When you wanted to stay indoors and play Nintendo, but she told you kids to go outside and play. Catch some sunlight.

Because, in the other direction, UVB radiation is involved in the body's natural production of vitamin D. If you don't catch enough rays, then you could end up with a vitamin D deficiency, and you need that vitamin for strong bones. A severe vitamin D deficiency causes bone problems, like rickets.

So, to summarise, you don't want too much UVB or it causes physical damage (think sunburn or even skin cancers at the extreme) and depletes folic acid, vital for pregnancy. But you also don't want too little UVB, as it's needed for natural vitamin D production, vital for strong and straight bones.

Not too little. Not too much.

But when you live up North on planet Earth, the angle of incidence between Earth's surface and the Sun's rays is more spread out and, therefore, less intense. When you live in Scandinavia, there's really no danger of you getting too much UVB from the Sun. But there absolutely is a danger of you getting too little and suffering rickets.

Therefore, the body reacts appropriately and the melanin production is turned off. Melanin is the body's natural "sunblock" and you absolutely do not need any, when you're living up North in Europe. Dial that melanin right down to zero. Hence white people.

But if you live at the Equator, the Sun's rays are (more or less) raining straight down on your head and are much more intense. It's boiling hot and the Sun's scorching. You are really in no danger whatsoever of not getting enough UVB. On the contrary, the worry is that you're going to get much too much, and it's going to start depleting that folic acid and causing skin cancers.

Therefore, the body reacts appropriately and the melanin production is turned up to 11. It blocks most of the UVB - but enough gets through for that vital vitamin D production for your bones. Hence black people.

And for latitudes in-between? Well, what we see are olive-skinned and brown people. There is melanin production but it's not cranked up to full.

And that's it. That's why Africans - living near the Equator - are black, and Nordics are white as the driven snow. And, at more mid latitudes, you've got olive-skinned Greeks and Arabs and Egyptians.

We live on a ball. The intensity of sunlight - the intensity of the UVB radiation in that sunlight - varies by the Cosine Rule.

Look where the white and the black people originate from and - oh, look - it varies by latitude, exactly as predicted and expected.

And we even have our "exception that proves the rule" as well. The Inuit Eskimoes live far North, so surely they should be as white as the driven snow? But, wait, they're more olive-skinned than your typical European. Is this breaking the rule? No, it's exception that proves it. Because up where they live in North America, there's near permanent snow cover. And the sunlight's being reflected back up by the snow - and you have to watch out for "snow blindness" from indirect sunlight from the snow. They are the exception that proves the rule, because thought the direct sunlight up there is less intense, you're getting a lot of indirect reflected sunlight from the snow.

(This, by the way, is really what "the exception proved the rule" really means. People often illogically think it means that you need an exception to your rule to prove the rule. But, no, an exception that contradicts the rule disproves it. What it really means is that you've got an exceptional circumstance but the rule still holds. If the Inuit Eskimoes live where, due to the environment, there's more sunlight but they remained white as a sheet, then our rule would have problems. But it doesn't, so this exception has just proven the rule.)

And that's what's really going on here. When a population has lived in sunny / not sunny conditions for thousands of years, then natural selection favours the local conditions. Near the Equator, folks with black skin aren't getting skin cancers and their pregnancies - bringing the next generations - have enough folic acid for healthy births. Rinse and repeat for 300,000 years or so, and the population is black skinned.

Meanwhile, if your ancestors wandered up North to Europe and Scandinavia, then natural selection favours low to no melanin production, as conditions like rickets get in the way of your survival (whilst there's no chance of folic acid depletion, at least from sunlight alone).

But the crucial thing here is that this is natural selection, but there's no mutation involved. Natural selection is shuffling the deck, but the cards in the deck were decided long, long ago. Again, we return full circle to the fact that the melanin genes are ancient. An inheritance 300 million years in the making. We ALL have the melanin genes, all that's being selected for by natural selection is whether they do or don't produce melanin. And, again, if you're a white person and you get a sun tan, that's the body dynamically reacted to the amount of UVB and turning on the melanin production.

You see, there's, in fact, absolutely nothing to be scared of with black skin. It's just the body's natural "sun cream", and the distribution of white and black people can be perfectly explained by the fact that the Earth is not flat. And it has nothing to do with mutation or "species" / "subspecies", as we're talking about ancient, ancient genes that all of us possess.

No need to panic. No need to mass-deport anyone. Just keep calm and carry on.
Last edited by KlaxonCow on Sun Sep 14, 2025 11:49 am 0, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by tufty »

About the only bit I disagree with :
KlaxonCow wrote:the distribution of white and black people can be perfectly explained by the fact that the Earth is not flat.
It'd be explained on a flat earth according to the usual "frisbee earth" map, as well. Perhaps the only thing that logically works on a flat earth.
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Re: Politics Thread!

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tufty wrote:About the only bit I disagree with :
KlaxonCow wrote:the distribution of white and black people can be perfectly explained by the fact that the Earth is not flat.
It'd be explained on a flat earth according to the usual "frisbee earth" map, as well. Perhaps the only thing that logically works on a flat earth.
Technically, what I said isn't incorrect.

I said it could be explained by the fact that the Earth is not flat. This doesn't preclude it also being explained by some particular variation of the Flat Earth model as well.

But, you know, between these two possible explanations, one of them has satellite pictures and flags planted on the Moon to prove it, while the other is a geometrical distortion proven bullshit by "the 24 hour Sun" in Antarctica:



As a bunch of Flat Earther YouTubers discovered, when they were challenged on their model by "globe" YouTubers, who arranged a trip to Antarctica to directly prove to them - no ice wall and, yes, the 24 hour Sun is a real thing, which your flat model can't fucking explain.

That's where this 24 hour timelapse comes from. While they could bring all some of the YouTube "flat Earthers" to empirically prove that their model was wrong, they couldn't bring everyone, so they took footage and then their "flat Earther" friends who did come along could provide the eye witness testimony that, yes, this is real footage and not some CGI trick.
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Re: Politics Thread!

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KlaxonCow wrote:Shave a gorilla and they have black skin:
Looks silvery to me in that picture. There is a known thing of putting a black surface under a strong light looking at it through a small hole and it appearing white, so you might be right, but that's not a good picture to show it.
and do understand why, as tufty absolutely 100% correctly states, that "race" does not exist in biology and it is NOT a biological term.
This is overdoing things. There is such a thing as race, it's a useful and easy way to make F1 hybrids (though we would need to keep track of which races had been crossed already to keep doing it), which we can probably keep doing for a thousand years without working out the mechanism of F1 hybridism, and by cheating the mechanism, forever, once we do discover exactly what is going on.
I don't think you'd propose that "women are a different species", other than maybe in a poetic sense.
It may have been mostly poetic/joking, but it's been said, and I'm not convinced that there have been no idiots (and if they existed they were definitely idiots) who took it seriously.
Within that freckle, I am black.
Really? most freckles I've seen have been brown or olive.
And, well, cells reproduce. So the "black" skin cells in my forearm have copied themselves - complete with the melanin production genes turned on - ever since. All the cells in your body (minus a few in the brain stem) replenish themselves, but they do so by copying themselves. Therefore, this epigenetic "copying mistake" will be with me, almost certainly, until the day I die.
I don't think it's quite like that, freckles run in families and are passed down from parent to child, sometimes, like red hair, which is also recessive, and a case of people who at least sometimes have little melanin except in their freckles if they have them.

I believe that most of the famous people in history were probably F1 hybrids, all they need to be F1s was to be is born to parents from different strains. I suspect the Kennedys are an example, JFK looked the part, and to a lesser extent so did his brothers, but the offspring don't which is also expected.
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Re: Politics Thread!

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Shave a polar bear and they have black skin too...
Lie with passion and be forever damned...

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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by PFVA »

Small intermission:

Our foreign affairs minister is in London to assign cooperation agreements in terms of the Portuguese living in the UK and the British living here, and in terms of business and investment. There is also political alignment in international things like Ukraine and Palestine and other stuff happening in Africa at the moment (?), and also something described as sharing information not exactly explained about what.

Basically nothing new, and the minister is very proud of the fact that we are the first country to signs agreements with the UK after Brexit.
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Re: Politics Thread!

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How is it that nobody is saying Make America Fat Again? It surely can't be that nobody thought it.
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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by PFVA »

Poor Donald Trump.
His trip to the UK is being almost ignored by our media.
They don't have enough time for it.
José Mourinho is back working here after 25 years of absence.
He is the new coach for Benfica (Football)
All national news channels keep showing him, Benfica, talking about how much is making, how he went up North and watched Porto playing last weekend and everybody stood up to applaud him.
And this morning he left the house where he is living and his wife was in the car with him., He owns several houses, he is in the one in the Setubal district.
With all those important things they have very little time for Trump's visit.
Note: Mourinho has good taste in terms of the house. There is several lovely big trees around it. :D
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Re: Politics Thread!

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgkn3v1e7g3o

Dunno whether it was looking good before, but this ain't.
Corbyn and Sultana clash over new party membership

...

Ex-Labour MP Zarah Sultana has accused Jeremy Corbyn of overseeing a "sexist boys' club" locking women out of the founding of a new left-wing party the pair announced earlier this year.

...

Before Sultana's comments, Corbyn put out a conflicting statement signed by Ayoub Khan, Adnan Hussain, Iqbal Mohamed and Shockat Adam - members of the Independent Alliance of MPs who are founding the new party. Sultana's name was conspicuously missing from the list.

...

Sultana also went on to raise concerns that long-time Corbyn ally Karie Murphy and her associates had been handed "sole financial control of members' money and sole constitutional control over our conference".
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Re: Politics Thread!

Post by F-ZeroOne »

The latest thing they're getting their knickers in a twist about:

https://www.wonkette.com/p/charlie-kirk ... at-indiana

So, let me see if I've got this straight: they're upset that Doctor Indiana Jones, a (checks notes) fictional character who exists in a time period full of (checks notes) self-declared fascists and who once (checks notes) helped melt the faces off a bunch of (checks notes) self-declared fascists with the (checks notes) literal Wrath of God, all because he (checks notes) talked to an equally non-existent cat in a (checks notes) video game.

Its almost sounds ridiculous when you write it out, doesn't it?
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Re: Politics Thread!

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tufty wrote:
zip accident wrote:we could deal with EU migrants, because they were like us
But we can't deal with the people coming across on small boats because they are not "like us". That's what it comes down to. They're brown. They don't worship the same gods. I know that's not exactly what you were talking about, and I've clipped you out of context, but you get the point.
What used to be like us about EU citizens, and isn't any more, is that then we could move to their countries as easily as they could move here.

The main current problem is that the poor are fed up of being shat on economically.
KlaxonCow wrote:
I refound that a couple of days ago, dunno whether I forgot it, or straight missed it at the time it was posted. Anyway, it seems good to me, though I don't have the numbers to confirm or deny it. Though the rich are hideously wealthy, I'm not sure that there are enough of them to pay all the tax that's needed without the moderately well off chipping in, maybe there are that many rich people.

Benefits need to go up now as do low end wages or benefits for those being paid low end wages, the health service needs at least twice the funds it's currently getting, and with Putin playing up so do the armed forces.

The alternative is a bloodbath, which may well be what we end up getting.

Erm, that's for the UK and the countries we used to be in the EU with, the USA is already hard on the bloodbath trail.
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